EXPERIENCE the heat! LIVE the excitement! SEE the oh, nevermind, it's old now. The first bit was graciously provided by an individual whose initials are imc but will otherwise remain anonymous :). All but a few of the middle articles should now be present. Article 36232 of comp.sys.sinclair: Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!server1.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!azure.xara.net!xara.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.interactive.net!news.new-york.net!actcom!news From: israelt Subject: Spectrum Emulator for C64 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: p1.netanya1.actcom.co.il Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> Sender: news@actcom.co.il (News) Reply-To: israelt@actcom.co.il Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organization: ACTCOM - Internet Services in Israel Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:18:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Lines: 7 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36232 I have Spectrum Emulator for C64, does anybody knows how to load programs with this emulator ?. it supprts only Basic I run it on a Frodo C64 emulator and it runs just fine ( I was too lazy to conect the real C64 ) Regards Israel Geron T. Article 36264 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!yama.mcc.ac.uk!basilisk.pdc.nhs.gov.uk!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!azure.xara.net!xara.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:50:47 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 19 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36264 In article <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il>, israelt writes >I have Spectrum Emulator for C64, does anybody knows >how to load programs with this emulator ?. it supprts only Basic >I run it on a Frodo C64 emulator and it runs just fine >( I was too lazy to conect the real C64 ) > >Regards > Israel Geron T. You use a Spectrum emulator on a C64 emulator? Why don't you just cut out the middleman (who needs the C64 anyway!) and get a speccy emulator for your platform. -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ Article 36375 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!azure.xara.net!xara.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.cybernet.dk!news.kolumbus.fi!news.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail From: mvuorine@cc.helsinki.fi (Mikko P Vuorinen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 19 May 1997 12:30:50 +0300 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5lp6ka$53r@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36375 In The Starglider writes: >You use a Spectrum emulator on a C64 emulator? Why don't you just cut >out the middleman (who needs the C64 anyway!) and get a speccy emulator >for your platform. But it should be fun to run an emulator on an emulator on an emulator (Linux dosemu => C64 emulator => Speccy emulator, for example). -- )))) (((( + Mikko Vuorinen + Riitta )) OO `oo'((( + mvuorine@cc.helsinki.fi + Uosukainen 6 (_) ( ((( + http://www.helsinki.fi/~mvuorine/ + presidentiksi. `____c 8__/((( + Dilbon@IRC + Article 36388 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!netcom.net.uk!news1.netusa.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.nacamar.de!newsfeed.de.ibm.net!ibm.net!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!cmir.arnes.si!news.uni-mb.si!locker From: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si (Tomaz Kac) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:04:24 GMT Organization: CAT Software Ltd. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <33803b33.1253190@news.uni-mb.si> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5lp6ka$53r@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> Reply-To: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si NNTP-Posting-Host: da0014.ppp.uni-mb.si Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36388 > >But it should be fun to run an emulator on an emulator on an emulator >(Linux dosemu => C64 emulator => Speccy emulator, for example). Well, this one has been proven to work (by me ;) ) : PC -> Amiga Emu -> Mac Emu (SS) -> C64 Emu (can't remember which one) -> ZX Emu And it went quite fine too ... Tomaz ************************************************** Tomaz Kac, University of Maribor, Computer Science E-Mail: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si Article 36584 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!paperboy.engeast.baynetworks.com!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!philabs!blanket.mitre.org!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!weld.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 21 May 97 11:00:02 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 23 Message-ID: <887.7080T660T101@airtime.co.uk> References: <5lp6ka$53r@kruuna.Helsinki.FI> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36584 On 19-May-97 Mikko P Vuorinen wrote: >In The Starglider > writes: >>You use a Spectrum emulator on a C64 emulator? Why don't you just cut >>out the middleman (who needs the C64 anyway!) and get a speccy emulator >>for your platform. >But it should be fun to run an emulator on an emulator on an emulator >(Linux dosemu => C64 emulator => Speccy emulator, for example). You could take it to extremes and run the Speccy emulator on Frodo (the C64 emulator) on Shapeshifter (the Mac emulator) on UAE (the Amiga emulator) on a Pentium. I guess you'd better make that a P200 if you want to get the final emulation running at any kind of usable speed at all. :) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? Article 36241 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 16 May 1997 17:43:40 GMT Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36241 israelt (israelt@actcom.co.il) wrote: : I have Spectrum Emulator for C64, does anybody knows : how to load programs with this emulator ?. it supprts only Basic : I run it on a Frodo C64 emulator and it runs just fine : ( I was too lazy to conect the real C64 ) This is a joke, right? The C64 couldn't HANDLE running a speccy! For one thing, the speccy was FASTER! -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Article 36285 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!yama.mcc.ac.uk!basilisk.pdc.nhs.gov.uk!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!pavilion!easynet-tele!news-xfer.cybernet.dk!newsfeed.nacamar.de!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:47:21 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <337fb998.3041725@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36285 On 16 May 1997 17:43:40 GMT, u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) wrote: >This is a joke, right? >The C64 couldn't HANDLE running a speccy! No joke, there is a Speccy BASIC emulator for the C64. Not quite a Speccy emulator but considering how crap C64 BASIC was, useful nonetheless. The emulator is, of course, mentioned in the FAQ. Not read it then? :) -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ Article 36275 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!server1.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!azure.xara.net!xara.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ge.switch.ch!cmir.arnes.si!news.uni-mb.si!locker From: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si (Tomaz Kac) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:16:59 GMT Organization: CAT Software Ltd. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <337d6687.3131443@news.uni-mb.si> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <337fb998.3041725@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si NNTP-Posting-Host: da0014.ppp.uni-mb.si Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36275 > >>This is a joke, right? >>The C64 couldn't HANDLE running a speccy! > >No joke, there is a Speccy BASIC emulator for the C64. Not quite >a Speccy emulator but considering how crap C64 BASIC was, useful >nonetheless. > >The emulator is, of course, mentioned in the FAQ. Not read it >then? :) And it is quite good too :) I remember it ran Horizons and Thro' the Wall pretty good (ofcourse the machine code for the different sized characters didn't work) ... btw. were you aware that there was a C64 emulator for Spectrum too ? And it was BASIC only ... and much worse than you would expect :) I might upload it to NVG someday. Tomaz ************************************************** Tomaz Kac, University of Maribor, Computer Science E-Mail: tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si Article 36292 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!netcom.net.uk!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:16:39 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <337dd9d9.460779@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <337fb998.3041725@news.demon.co.uk> <337d6687.3131443@news.uni-mb.si> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36292 On Sat, 17 May 1997 10:16:59 GMT, tomaz.kac@uni-mb.si (Tomaz Kac) wrote: >btw. were you aware that there was a C64 emulator for Spectrum too ? Nope, gimme ;) -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ Article 36301 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 17 May 1997 18:20:22 GMT Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5lkst6$hhd$5@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <337fb998.3041725@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36301 Damien Burke (damien@jetman.d.c.u) wrote: : The emulator is, of course, mentioned in the FAQ. Not read it : then? :) I think I skimmed through it once, a couple of years ago.... But then, I'm a regular here, so I know most of the general stuff contained in FAQs..... -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Article 36272 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news From: Philip Kendall Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:24:25 +0100 Organization: Cambridge University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <337D7949.3E9@cam.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc2044.nmus.pwf.cam.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36272 Spike wrote: > > israelt (israelt@actcom.co.il) wrote: > : I have Spectrum Emulator for C64, does anybody knows > : how to load programs with this emulator ?. it supprts only Basic > > This is a joke, right? > The C64 couldn't HANDLE running a speccy! > For one thing, the speccy was FASTER! Read the FAQ :-) It does exist... even if it is a bit slow and only does BASIC; of course, if you're running an emulated C64 (spit!), you could always have your emulator running at top speed, and get the Speccy up to decent speed! Phil -- / Philip Kendall (pak21@cam.ac.uk pak21@kendalls.demon.co.uk) \ | http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/5427/spectrum.htm | | New? Read the FAQ: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ | \ Looking for something?: http://drson.vse.cz/snapsearch/ / Article 36371 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!netcom.net.uk!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!azure.xara.net!xara.net!news-feed1.globalnet.co.uk!btnet-feed2!bmdhh222.bnr.ca!news From: "P.J.K. Huntley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:20:36 +0100 Organization: VLSI subsystems, Nortel semiconductors Message-ID: <33800D54.167EB0E7@nortel.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <337D7949.3E9@cam.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 47.11.128.170 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4c) Lines: 15 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36371 Philip Kendall wrote: > Read the FAQ :-) It does exist... even if it is a bit slow and only does > BASIC; of course, if you're running an emulated C64 (spit!), you could > always have your emulator running at top speed, and get the Speccy up to > decent speed! > > Phil A PC emulating a C64 emulating a spectrum. Why? Maybe you could get a C64 emulating a spectrum emulating a C64...bet that wouldn't work. Surely you could get a zx81 emulator for speccie. Or is there one. Article 36376 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:35:37 -0700 Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5lpaee$frf@cpca3.uea.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <337D7949.3E9@cam.ac.uk> <33800D54.167EB0E7@nortel.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36376 P.J.K. Huntley wrote in article <33800D54.167EB0E7@nortel.co.uk>... >Philip Kendall wrote: > >A PC emulating a C64 emulating a spectrum. Why? Why not? >Maybe you could get a C64 emulating a spectrum emulating a C64...bet >that wouldn't work. > Dunno, but I have tried a PC emulating an Amiga emulating a Speccy. Unbeliveably pointless and stupid, but it works! (very very slowly) Hmm, wonder if I could fit a C64 in there somewhere. Andy Article 36445 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!server1.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!azure.xara.net!xara.net!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!qmw!orac.sunderland.ac.uk!usenet From: Andrew Barker Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:18:21 -0700 Organization: University of Sunderland Lines: 59 Message-ID: <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cis_u6_1.sunderland.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36445 Spike wrote: > > israelt (israelt@actcom.co.il) wrote: > : I have Spectrum Emulator for C64, does anybody knows > : how to load programs with this emulator ?. it supprts only Basic > : I run it on a Frodo C64 emulator and it runs just fine > : ( I was too lazy to conect the real C64 ) > > This is a joke, right? > The C64 couldn't HANDLE running a speccy! > > For one thing, the speccy was FASTER! > > -- > ______________________________________________________________________________ > |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | > |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | > |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | > |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | > |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yup, the speccy is 3.5Hmz whereas the C64 was only 1Mhz. However, and its a big however. Similar to the Amiga the C64 had custom chips to do music and various graphics and things. You need a 40Hmz Machine or above to run the C64 at full speed. For the spectrum you need just 25Hmz. So as you can tell from this it is more complex to emulate a C64 (taking into consideration all its processors) than to emulator a speccy. Its the same principle as Emulating an Amiga as appose to a PC. The PC can be emulated quit quickly in retrospect to a PC or other machine emulating an Amiga. You see the Amiga has loads of custom co-processors working in unison with the 680x0 processor and these need to be emulated simultaneously. As stated in the 'thread' its only a BASIC emulator so no optimised Assembly routines have been used. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A1200, Viper 030 - 42.6 Mhz,50 Mhz FPU, 4 MB Fast RAM, 170 MB Hard Drive, SyQuest EZ135Mb Drive, External Drive, Power CD-ROM Drive, CD-32 __ /// Andrew Barker - ca4aba@osiris.sund.ac.uk __ /// Web Page - http://osiris.sund.ac.uk/~ca4aba/home.html \\\/// or /index.html \/// Amiga - Underestinamted ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- And A Lame PeeCee - P133, 16Mb, 1.1GB HD, 8xCD-ROM, 14" SVGA Monitor, 2Mb S3Trio 64V+ Graphics Card Still Lame ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Article 36452 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!agate!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:54:54 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <3385f21a.1579814@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36452 On Tue, 20 May 1997 17:18:21 -0700, Andrew Barker wrote: >You need a 40Hmz Machine or above to run the C64 at full speed. For the >spectrum you need just 25Hmz. > >So as you can tell from this it is more complex to emulate a C64 (taking >into consideration all its processors) than to emulator a speccy. Not necessarily true; all that says is that the C64 emulators may not be as well programmed as the best Speccy emulators... ...but you're probably right ;) -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ Article 36523 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!netcom.net.uk!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 03:12:02 -0600 From: l.d.tonks@bra0202.wins.icl.co.uk Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Message-ID: <864288526.30888@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 22 08:08:47 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 194.176.223.193 (cfmgw.iclnet.co.uk) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.0 (Win16; I) X-Authenticated-Sender: l.d.tonks@bra0202.wins.icl.co.uk Lines: 32 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36523 A Commodore 64 fan wrote : >40 mhz to emulate a C64 at full speed ? Are you kidding ? >The fastest C64 emulator (which doesn't emulate the C64 at 100%) needs >at least a 486/100 with a fast video card to get full speed without >skipping frames. The sound emulation is not very good, and, of course, >doesn't emulate SID filters and some VIC screen effects. How come I can easily get full speed using C64S on my DX2-66 then? >CCS64, one of the best C64 emulators, needs a Pentium 133, and that's >without emulating the SID filters! Emulators are no good for estimating the complexity of a machine because they are all different. Given that CCS64 requires a P133 I'd draw the conclusions that it's either 'written in C' or 'written very badly' rather than 'C64 is more complex than the Spectrum'. That said, it's blatantly obvious to anyone that the 64 hardware is much harder to emulate than the Spectrum's. Just not THAT hard. Blood. *============[ l.d.tonks@bra0202.wins.icl.co.uk ]=============* | The Infamous BLOOD! | | The Speccy's not dead - it was just resting! | | Who needs 500Mb of rendered intro when Jetpac fits in 16k?! | *===[ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lakes/6142/ ]====* -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet Article 36964 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!server1.netnews.ja.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!btnet!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!millettc.demon.co.uk!millettc.demon.co.uk!millettc From: Chris Millett Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:20:55 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <33871dfa.841510@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: millettc.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: millettc.demon.co.uk [194.222.175.74] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Trial Version 3.03 Lines: 19 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36964 In article <33871dfa.841510@news.demon.co.uk>, Damien Burke writes >LCP? Came out on tape. I dare say it still loaded faster than >the C64's disk version. Is LCP available at NVG (on the WWW via FTP!)? I haven't been able to locate it there - used to be one of my favourites on the C64, I'd love to see it on the Speccy. Incidentally, has anyone seen those new keyring things (10 quid a time) with the little creature you have to look after? My bruv reckons it's just like a miniature LCP (Yep, he's 26 and has bought one). ------------------------------------------------ Chris Millett Gillingham, Kent home email : millettc@millettc.demon.co.uk work email : millettc@medisd.demon.co.uk Article 36827 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.xnet.com!typhoon.xnet.com!not-for-mail From: jcompton@typhoon.xnet.com (Jason Compton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 26 May 1997 01:51:18 GMT Organization: XNet - Chicagoland's Regional ISP (630) 983-6064 Message-ID: <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6969$c7c091a0$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: typhoon.xnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Lines: 12 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36827 comp.sys.cbm:56282 comp.emulators.cbm:19478 Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: : Yeah, and how many 2D games have you seen on the Playstation. Not a lot I : can tell you, simply because the hardware is much more suited to 3D. No, because Sony doesn't like to allow 2D games to be released on the Playstation. That's what delayed the release of Worms. -- Jason Compton jcompton@xnet.com Editor-in-Chief, Amiga Report Magazine Anchor, Amiga Legacy WWW - http://www.cucug.org/ar/ www.xnet.com/~jcompton/ To see reflected there...the trees, the sky, the lily fair... Article 36838 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news.webspan.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:34:29 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6969$c7c091a0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 18 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36838 comp.sys.cbm:56297 comp.emulators.cbm:19490 In article <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com>, Jason Compton writes >Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: >: Yeah, and how many 2D games have you seen on the Playstation. Not a lot I >: can tell you, simply because the hardware is much more suited to 3D. > >No, because Sony doesn't like to allow 2D games to be released on the >Playstation. That's what delayed the release of Worms. > Well, then that's a bloody stupid thing to do on Sony's part, isn't it!! -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * NVG UPDATES:nvg@thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ Article 36829 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!server1.netnews.ja.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 1997 02:03:53 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5mar29$3lc@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:36829 comp.sys.cbm:56287 comp.emulators.cbm:19481 In article , Russ Juckes wrote: >judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: > >>> Where is the Amiga today? The speed of the PC is more important than >>> the fancy hardware of the Amiga. > >> The Amiga, in all its various forms, is still used in many areas >> including the video markets. That is a testament to the importance of a >> good design -- how many PC's in "professional" use are more than 1-2 >> years old? > >Well, the Spectrum is still being used today, and caused you to post all this >flamage. So I'd say that's a pretty good testament to design as well, >wouldn't you, even if it's only being emulated? Nowhere do I recall attempting to make any sort of comment on the quality, design, or usability of the Spectrum. In fact, I recall prefacing that post with a statement to the contrary. Nowhere did I mention emulation. My statement above looks to be a comment on the Amiga. In summary: I completely fail to see anything resembling a connection between your comments and my post. It strikes me as being rather akin to a broken pencil. (Pointless) evetS- Article 38127 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!nemesis.waverider.co.uk!news.uk2.vbc.net!knews.uk0.vbc.net!vbcnet-gb!azure.xara.net!xara.net!nildram!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!malgudi.oar.net!triglav.iwaynet.net!not-for-mail From: dklugh@iwaynet.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 6 Jun 1997 16:31:30 GMT Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5n9e12$t7p$1@triglav.iwaynet.net> References: <5mhbg3$fse$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: port137.iwaynet.net X-Everything: Net-Tamer V 1.08 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:38127 comp.sys.cbm:57414 comp.emulators.cbm:20412 On 1997-05-28 u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk(Spike) said: >XmikeX (xmikex@eyrie.org) wrote: >: It is a real shame that the market place now favors the >inefficient and dirty : programmer. I guess in that case, the >legacy of Atari, Apple, IBM, and : Spectrum, live on.. At least the atari had installable device handlers (how do you use a RAM disk on a Commodore?,or a different,faster RS232 interface), 1D sector addressing rather than 3D (track,sector,side). (compare with the PC BIOS lying about the configuration of a hard drive because you can only have 1024 tracks) And the Atari has support for graphics. Then again,even the lowly Apple has interupt driven RS232 ports. And the Commodore,atari and TI had device independance. (compare with PC) Too bad the TI only had 256 bytes of memory. (plus the 16k of C128-like video memory) >Ahem! >: (I'm just kidding... >Good.... >: The Spectrum was even more limited than the C64, which >: - in theory - should have birthed better programmers but then >again, there is : only so much that can be done with a z80, some >string, and a condom...). >They did birth better programmers. >Unfortunately, microsoft now rules the world, and all their >programmers started with mega-fast, over-powered, >more-memory-than-they-knew-what-to-do-with-machines. >Current programmers are spoiled rotten. They should be FORCED to >program in an enviroment with less than 1 Meg until they LEARN to >program properly. 1000k!!! How about 64k? >Also, 'C' doesn't help, cos that produces memory hungry code. I know that it uses the stack all the time to comunicate with library routines even when the registers would be enough. Using DJGPP is good because it allocates memory like UNIX does. That is,memory is automaticly allocated (in 4k blocks) when the CPU accesses a (non-existent) memory location.Of course this depends on what DPMI/VCPI interface you are using. Of course making a professional programme (read "game") in anything other than assembly seems amateurish to me. Net-Tamer V 1.08 - Test Drive Article 37409 of comp.sys.sinclair: Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!spuddy!spuddy.mew.co.uk!arcsalt From: Darren Salt Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Message-ID: <479294BA6D%arcsalt@spuddy.mew.com.uk> X-Editor: Zap, using ZapEmail 0.19 pre-24 with AST (ygolonhceT mapS-itnA) Lines: 48 Sender: arcsalt@spuddy.mew.co.uk (Darren Salt) X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59 Organization: Spud's Public Usenet Domain X-Newsreader: Messenger v0.30 for RISC OS References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:09:46 GMT Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:37409 [Note newsgroups trimmed. I have no desire to crosspost this...] In article "Alvin R. Albrecht" wrote: > On 26 May 1997, Po-Ching Lives! wrote: [huge snip] >> And where did the Spectrum go? The Spectrum was just as obsolete and its >> market share sunk like cement. The 64 ruined many other 8-bit > Not true. The Spectrum was manufactured up to 1990 (?). The size of the > Spectrum's software base proves its market share was significant. The same > can be said of the C64. You've kept both camps happy there, I think :-) > Both were made obsolete by 16bits and 32bits. BTW, there were other 8 bit > computers made that have far better characteristics than either machine, > but they did not take off underlying the point that the days of the 8 bit > were over. Still plenty of BBCs sold, though. And you still see some in use occasionally. :-) >> machines at the time, too. Where's the Acorn? The Exidy Sorceror? The >> CoCo? Heck, where's the MSXs? (Hint, one is in my closet.) > I still see CoCos (Dragons I believe in Europe). I was wondering what this CoCo was. (And yes, I have seen one Dragon 32. Running Chuckie Egg, complete with Spectrum character set...) > Acorn is now 32bit and RISC based. Well said. :-) > MSX - I've never seen one. Never seen one either, although ISTR that I've seen a Lynx once... -- | Darren Salt | Acorn Risc PC, | Toon Army | 01268 515441 | arcsalt@spuddy,mew,co,uk | A3010, Spec+3, | Season ticket | free mail, news | darren,salt@unn,ac,uk | BBC Master | nr Ashington, Northumberland | I don't ask for much, just untold riches... You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike. Article 37474 of comp.sys.sinclair: Path: news.ox.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!us1.rhbnc.ac.uk!warwick!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 31 May 1997 02:30:57 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: <01bc6d6a$9d2156a0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <479294BA6D%arcsalt@spuddy.mew.com.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.ox.ac.uk comp.sys.sinclair:37474 Darren Salt wrote in article <479294BA6D%arcsalt@spuddy.mew.com.uk>... > [Note newsgroups trimmed. I have no desire to crosspost this...] > > In article > > "Alvin R. Albrecht" wrote: > > > Acorn is now 32bit and RISC based. > > Well said. :-) > And still a pile of .... And still not to everybodys personal preferences, with absolutely no suggestion that they belong in schools or anything along those lines. ;-) Andy --------- Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Summary: Expires: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> Sender: Followup-To: Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Distribution: Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Keywords: Cc: In article <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk>, Damien Burke wrote: >On 25 May 1997 21:14:06 GMT, judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen >Judd) wrote: > >>While it's a foreign concept (literally) to many Europeans, a disk >>drive extends that much further: once freed of the shackles of a >>tape drive, you can store things on disk and retrieve them when >>needed > >This really takes the piss, and is the usual US = shiny techno >place, Europe = fifthy medieval dungeon bollocks. Seeing as Quite the opposite. I simply put the question to you: is anything in my above statement erroneous? As I see it, it contains three main points, here outlined for the tunneled of vision: 1. Most Europeans used tape drives instead of disk drives. 2. A disk drive is much more flexible than a tape drive. 3. Some Europeans, yourself perhaps, often don't understand why a disk drive is more useful than a tape drive, perhaps because they've never had one, or used programs which take advantage of a disk drive. See point #1. As to the spurious nationalistic accusational sanctimony, I find that many people, when they have nothing really spectacular or witty to say, resort to attempting to change the subject with spurious nationalistic accusational sanctimony. The most elusive thing however is why some Europeans think that the USA views them all as ignorant peons, who when taken city by city have an aggregate I.Q. sufficient for shoe tying*. In point of fact, many people in the USA cannot even find Europe on a map, let alone care what Europeans are doing or thinking. I thus take such statements as statements of general insecurity, for reasons unknown. * Although it would explain Tony Blair ;-) ;-) >these 'European' tape drives (drive?) were faster than your 64's >disk drive, I don't think we missed out there, did we? I have no idea. As I have said, I have no experience with Spectrums. Tape drives on the 64 are certainly not as fast as disk drives on the 64 though, especially accelerated disk drives. Somehow, though, I thought my point was that a disk drive was much more flexible and useful than a tape drive. Ah well... >>And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. > >Absolute utter crap. Please list every single country where the >64 outsold the Speccy, and please explain why you do not class >countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' >you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not Yeah, we kicked your ass in 1776 and again in 1812, so there. >drop the 'free' bit entirely and we'll ask the East Europeans >and Russians which 8-bit machine was more successful, eh? > >>of units -- the #1 selling computer of all time. > >And there was me thinking that was the 80x86 based PC. Well, that would explain why you are wrong. evetS- From c64fan@commodore.rulez.the.world Wed Jun 4 16:52:56 CDT 1997 Article: 67937 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.he.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!szdc!newsp.zippo.com!snews1 From: c64fan@commodore.rulez.the.world (A Commodore 64 fan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:31:15 GMT Organization: None Lines: 28 Message-ID: <33858e42.1211894@commodore64.com> References: <864288526.30888@dejanews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38344 comp.sys.cbm:67937 comp.emulators.cbm:20508 l.d.tonks@bra0202.wins.icl.co.uk wrote: >How come I can easily get full speed using C64S on my DX2-66 then? Because: 1) You tested the speed in a non graphic intesive program or 2) You're skipping frames >Emulators are no good for estimating the complexity of a machine because >they are all different. That's true. >Given that CCS64 requires a P133 I'd draw the >conclusions that it's either 'written in C' or 'written very badly' rather >than 'C64 is more complex than the Spectrum'. That's not true, CCS64 emulates the C64 in a single cycle mode, because it's the only way to try to get 100% compatibility. That's why it needs a Pentium 133. >That said, it's blatantly obvious to anyone that the 64 hardware is much >harder to emulate than the Spectrum's. Just not THAT hard. Yes it is. A c64 fan. From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:05 CDT 1997 Article: 67745 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 26 May 97 17:26:16 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 91 Message-ID: <3663.7085T1046T847@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38103 comp.sys.cbm:67745 comp.emulators.cbm:20334 On 26-May-97 The Starglider wrote: >In article <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes >> >>Quite the opposite. I simply put the question to you: is anything >>in my above statement erroneous? As I see it, it contains three >>main points, here outlined for the tunneled of vision: >> >> 1. Most Europeans used tape drives instead of disk drives. >Because we had the intelligence to know which one's were better at the >time. Err, no. It's because we didn't really get the choice. Hardware companies just made the disk drives too expensive over here. Why do you think things like microdrives and wafadrives were developed, after all. You can't do very good random access on a tape. :) >> 2. A disk drive is much more flexible than a tape drive. >Except the C64's. No, again. The 1541 was horribly slow, no doubt about it, but even so it was far more flexible than messing about with multi-load tapes. >> 3. Some Europeans, yourself perhaps, often don't >> understand why a disk drive is more useful than a tape >> drive, perhaps because they've never had one, or used >> programs which take advantage of a disk drive. See >> point #1. >Steady on!! It was Europe who started the whole home computer market! >And it wasn't the PC as well, that was considered a business computer. Oh god. Here goes another USA vs rest of ignorant world debate... :-) >>As to the spurious nationalistic accusational sanctimony, I find >>that many people, when they have nothing really spectacular or witty >>to say, resort to attempting to change the subject with spurious >>nationalistic accusational sanctimony. >> >>The most elusive thing however is why some Europeans think that the >>USA views them all as ignorant peons, who when taken city by city >>have an aggregate I.Q. sufficient for shoe tying*. In point of fact, >>most people in the USA cannot even find Europe on a map, let alone >>care what Europeans are doing or thinking. I thus take such statements >>as statements of general insecurity, for reasons unknown. >> >We rest our case, if most people in the US can't find Europe on a map, >why should we listen to what they have to say? You have to remember that World maps in the US end with Canada in the north and Mexico in the South. Besides, I don't think those people who can't find Europe on a map could find Idaho on a map, or even hold the darn thing the right way up, so I don't think we need worry about them much. >>>>And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. >>> >>>Absolute utter crap. Please list every single country where the >>>64 outsold the Speccy, and please explain why you do not class >>>countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' >>>you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not >> >>Yeah, we kicked your ass in 1776 and again in 1812, so there. >That's only in your country. We liberated the world from nazi rule... >TWICE! >>>drop the 'free' bit entirely and we'll ask the East Europeans >>>and Russians which 8-bit machine was more successful, eh? >>> >>>>of units -- the #1 selling computer of all time. >>> >>>And there was me thinking that was the 80x86 based PC. >> >>Well, that would explain why you are wrong. >You stupid git! THat was a joke! At least we have a sense of humour. It's a European sense of humour, you know. Americans just can't understand it. Watch their sitcoms and see what I mean. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:09 CDT 1997 Article: 68365 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 27 May 1997 13:56:49 GMT Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mep71$eoq$6@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <3663.7085T1046T847@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38922 comp.sys.cbm:68365 comp.emulators.cbm:20895 Bill Hoggett (hoggett@airtime.co.uk) wrote: : >That's only in your country. We liberated the world from nazi rule... : >TWICE! : : I think I'll groan with you here..... And if that was the FIRST time, when did you liberate the world from Nazi rule the second time? It must be some secret that you're keeping from the rest of the world?...... -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 16:53:13 CDT 1997 Article: 67929 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 30 May 1997 02:59:35 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 105 Message-ID: <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38342 comp.sys.cbm:67929 comp.emulators.cbm:20503 In article , The Starglider wrote: >In article <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes >> >>The most elusive thing however is why some Europeans think that the >>USA views them all as ignorant peons, who when taken city by city >>have an aggregate I.Q. sufficient for shoe tying*. In point of fact, >>most people in the USA cannot even find Europe on a map, let alone >>care what Europeans are doing or thinking. I thus take such statements >>as statements of general insecurity, for reasons unknown. >> >We rest our case, if most people in the US can't find Europe on a map, >why should we listen to what they have to say? Because they know what they are talking about and you do not? Incidentally, I would wager that I know more about Eurpoean geography, society, and politics than you know about the American same. >> >>I have no idea. As I have said, I have no experience with Spectrums. >>Tape drives on the 64 are certainly not as fast as disk drives on >>the 64 though, especially accelerated disk drives. > >Then what the bloody hell are you doing then??? At least a lot of us >here had some experience of the C64! If you have NO experience of the >Spectrum, then don't compare. The confusion stems on your part from something called "imagination". Somehow you are able to imagine that some drastic comment about a Spectrum has been made, when in reality all that was made was a comment about a Commodore 64. What you fail to grasp is that I don't care about Spectrums. I have a wonderful machine that I am quite happy to use, and apparently unlike some other computer users its usefulness to me does not depend on how it compares with any other computer. Having said that, I have found these posts to be somewhat enlightening. As near as I can tell, a Spectrum is a Z80 with a simple graphics chip and a tape drive -- sounds more like a high school science project than a home computer. It has also reminded me about the flexibility of the 64 -- one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. The descriptions of the Spectrum have been terribly underwhelming and unflattering -- seems to me that there is one and only one way to accomplish a given task on the machine, and it is a brute-force method to boot. Since the Spectrum users seem to think games are the end-all comparison of computers, it got me to thinking. It got me to thinking about the kinds of games I used to play on the 64. As near as I can figure these games would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do on the Spectrum as described by its would-be advocates. These include role-playing games like Wasteland, Bard's Tale, and Ultima I-V. Raid on Bungeling Bay was awfully fun, as were many EA games like MULE, Archon I and II, Mail Order Monsters, Modem Wars, and many others. I also enjoyed the MicroProse simulations, like Silent Service, Gunship, etc. It boggles the mind to think about doing such games without the benefit of a disk drive, 64k, sprites, custom character sets, etc. (Maybe that's why the PC versions were so lousy). >>Somehow, though, I thought my point was that a disk drive was much more >>flexible and useful than a tape drive. Ah well... >> >Well or course it would! If i had a tape player that loaded a 40K >program in 10 minutes, and a disc drive that loaded the same game in 8.5 >mins, I would go for a disc drive. But at least the spectrum could load >a 128K game in under 6 minutes! Once again the seemingly elusive concept of an accelerated disk drive has slipped past another individual. Luckily Commodore drives are so flexible that not only can file transfers be sped up, but the disk encoding scheme can be abandoned entirely in favor of a new scheme. As a practical matter, this is manifested in two ways: first, the user can accelerate the disk drive, by adding a cartridge, replacing the ROM, or typing in any of the many fastloader programs published in magazines, etc. Second, any software company can include a fastloader as part of their program. In point of fact, nearly every major software company included fastloaders with their programs made after 1985 or so. None of which addresses the extreme flexibility which a disk drive gives over a tape drive. >>>And there was me thinking that was the 80x86 based PC. >> >>Well, that would explain why you are wrong. > >You stupid git! THat was a joke! At least we have a sense of humour. Ah, well, usually humor has a connotation involving wit, a clever turn of phrase, a thoughtful reference, an interesting analogy, an odd correlation, or a number of other facets. So you can see my confusion in your statement. I can see now that you are a man of rare wit indeed -- rare as in "not well-done". evetS- From starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:16 CDT 1997 Article: 67957 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:02:29 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 147 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38404 comp.sys.cbm:67957 comp.emulators.cbm:20538 In article <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd writes >>> >>We rest our case, if most people in the US can't find Europe on a map, >>why should we listen to what they have to say? > >Because they know what they are talking about and you do not? > >Incidentally, I would wager that I know more about Eurpoean geography, >society, and politics than you know about the American same. > What do you mean? If a lot of Americans cannot find Europeans on a map, then how can we trust what they are talking about. That was the point I was making. As a little side-point here, a survey found a couple of years ago that 26% of Americans were convinced that the whole world was out to get them, and of that 26%, 75% of them owned guns. That tells me something about the mentality of the Americans. >>> > >The confusion stems on your part from something called "imagination". >Somehow you are able to imagine that some drastic comment about a >Spectrum has been made, when in reality all that was made was a >comment about a Commodore 64. > That's it exactly! Imagination! You see, the spectrum was built with some imagination. That's why the processor had soo much control over every aspect, so that the programmer could do anything the computer within the limits of the memory. The commodore was limited by the hardware. You cannot argue that point, so don't bother. >What you fail to grasp is that I don't care about Spectrums. I have >a wonderful machine that I am quite happy to use, and apparently >unlike some other computer users its usefulness to me does not >depend on how it compares with any other computer. > Fair enough, don't get involved with this thread then! >Having said that, I have found these posts to be somewhat enlightening. >As near as I can tell, a Spectrum is a Z80 with a simple graphics chip >and a tape drive -- sounds more like a high school science project >than a home computer. > If that's your interpretation, that's fine. My interpretation of the C64 is a machine with a SLOW processor, and SLOWER data transfer devices, whose hardware is just a slow. >It has also reminded me about the flexibility of the 64 -- one of the >reasons I enjoy it so much. The descriptions of the Spectrum have been >terribly underwhelming and unflattering -- seems to me that there is >one and only one way to accomplish a given task on the machine, and it >is a brute-force method to boot. > Isn't that better to do tasks? Get the job done quickly? No-one want's programs that arses around to get the answer. Why? does the commode take so long that you need to "pep" it up with some fancy music and graphics? >Since the Spectrum users seem to think games are the end-all comparison >of computers, it got me to thinking. It got me to thinking about the >kinds of games I used to play on the 64. As near as I can figure >these games would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do on >the Spectrum as described by its would-be advocates. 99% of the games for the C64 came out for the spectrum, the same that 99% of spectrum games came out for the C64, so that was a REALLY stupid statement! > >These include role-playing games like Wasteland, Bard's Tale, and Ultima I-V. >Raid on Bungeling Bay was awfully fun, as were many EA games like MULE, >Archon I and II, Mail Order Monsters, Modem Wars, and many others. I >also enjoyed the MicroProse simulations, like Silent Service, Gunship, etc. > Gunship, due it's vectors, was infinitely better on the spectrum - you can't argue that either, that's fact. Silent service was an excellent game, wasn't it! I played that on my SPECTRUM for ages! >It boggles the mind to think about doing such games without the benefit >of a disk drive, 64k, sprites, custom character sets, etc. (Maybe that's >why the PC versions were so lousy). > Hang on... have you missed the whole point here? The spectrum DID do all that with no hardware sprites, disc drives etc... Jon Ritman (A highly respected programmer, who did classics like Head Over Heels, Batman, Matchday I and II) has even said that there were problems encountered in the same game played on a commodore compared to a spectrum. You see, I think the problem here is not that "The commodore had dedicated hardware to help do it's graphics quickly" which is true. Everyone knows that. But the CPU still does all the calculations and mathematics, and the spectrum was faster at that. Yet again, that's another point you cannot argue. The spectrum could (and did) deal with the graphics for all games, and compute all the neccesary maths for whatever it was doing, and STILL outrun the Commodore. Yet again, FACT. So don't argue that either (You're not going to have a lot to argue here, are you!). >Once again the seemingly elusive concept of an accelerated disk drive >has slipped past another individual. Luckily Commodore drives are >so flexible that not only can file transfers be sped up, but the disk >encoding scheme can be abandoned entirely in favor of a new scheme. > >As a practical matter, this is manifested in two ways: first, the user >can accelerate the disk drive, by adding a cartridge, replacing the ROM, >or typing in any of the many fastloader programs published in magazines, >etc. Second, any software company can include a fastloader as part >of their program. > >In point of fact, nearly every major software company included fastloaders >with their programs made after 1985 or so. > >None of which addresses the extreme flexibility which a disk drive gives >over a tape drive. > We were all talking about the bog-standard C64 disc drive. You lot keep having to resort to the upgraded equipment. Why? The fact remained that with the standard non-upgraded C64 disc-drive was in slower than the spectrum cassette system. Fact. Spectrum also had speedloaders that loaded games at a baud rate of over 2500. That was faster than the C64's fastest loader. Fact. Every major software company HAD to include speedloaders in all their games. They took just too long to load. Fact. >>>>And there was me thinking that was the 80x86 based PC. >>> >>>Well, that would explain why you are wrong. >> >>You stupid git! THat was a joke! At least we have a sense of humour. > >Ah, well, usually humor has a connotation involving wit, a clever >turn of phrase, a thoughtful reference, an interesting analogy, an >odd correlation, or a number of other facets. So you can see my >confusion in your statement. > >I can see now that you are a man of rare wit indeed -- rare as in >"not well-done". > > evetS- I can see now that you are a man who cannot read- or rather who chooses what you read. I didn't make the joke! Someone else did. Care to apologise for all your mistakes? -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * NVG UPDATES:nvg@thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:21 CDT 1997 Article: 68066 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 30 May 1997 11:04:23 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6ce9$2c2a9820$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk><5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu> <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 33 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38564 comp.sys.cbm:68066 comp.emulators.cbm:20646 The Starglider wrote in article <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk>... > In article <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes > >As near as I can figure > >these games would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to do on > >the Spectrum as described by its would-be advocates. > 99% of the games for the C64 came out for the spectrum, the same that > 99% of spectrum games came out for the C64, so that was a REALLY stupid > statement! I could of course emphasize the point that a lot of people thought things were immpossible on the Speccy and then someone else would just come along and do it. In fact I've just been playing Prince of Persia, which even *I* thought was immposible. > Hang on... have you missed the whole point here? The spectrum DID do all > that with no hardware sprites, disc drives etc... Jon Ritman (A highly > respected programmer, who did classics like Head Over Heels, Batman, > Matchday I and II) has even said that there were problems encountered in > the same game played on a commodore compared to a spectrum. > He, he. This is down to those horrible limitations of hardware sprites that we keep mentioning. In an isometric game things not only have to go behind and in front of the background, but also between. C64 sprites cna't do this, so they have to use software sprites. Andy From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 16:53:23 CDT 1997 Article: 68098 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 30 May 1997 17:04:46 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 50 Message-ID: <5mn1be$bq6@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu> <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38611 comp.sys.cbm:68098 comp.emulators.cbm:20678 In article <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk>, The Starglider wrote: >In article <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes >> >>Because they know what they are talking about and you do not? >> >>Incidentally, I would wager that I know more about Eurpoean geography, >>society, and politics than you know about the American same. >> >What do you mean? If a lot of Americans cannot find Europeans on a map, >then how can we trust what they are talking about. That was the point I >was making. pi = 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923 When dropped from a building a ball will accelerate downwards at 9.8 m/s^2. Since neither of these statements is correct, you are free to disregard everything else I might say. >>The confusion stems on your part from something called "imagination". >>Somehow you are able to imagine that some drastic comment about a >>Spectrum has been made, when in reality all that was made was a >>comment about a Commodore 64. >> >That's it exactly! Imagination! You see, the spectrum was built with >some imagination. That's why the processor had soo much control over A processor, the most basic possible monochrome bitmap graphics controller, and a tone generator. I think I should take back my earlier statement; surely a high school student designing a science project would have a little more imagination. >Everyone knows that. But the CPU still does all the calculations and >mathematics, and the spectrum was faster at that. Yet again, that's I'd say that rather depends on how you do the calculations, wouldn't you? Why not post some of your mathematical Z80 code, and we can compare it with my 6510 code? >I can see now that you are a man who cannot read- or rather who chooses >what you read. I'm sorry, I was unable to read that statement, and didn't see it besides. evetS- From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:26 CDT 1997 Article: 68104 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 30 May 1997 17:43:53 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d20$fad55fc0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu> <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk> <5mn1be$bq6@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 21 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38617 comp.sys.cbm:68104 comp.emulators.cbm:20686 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mn1be$bq6@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk>, > The Starglider wrote: > >In article <5mlfqn$l5b@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > > writes > >Everyone knows that. But the CPU still does all the calculations and > >mathematics, and the spectrum was faster at that. Yet again, that's > > I'd say that rather depends on how you do the calculations, wouldn't > you? Okay take the fastest algorithm for producing a paritcular mathematical function. If you ran it on a Z80, which has more genral purpose registers, faster clock, bigger intstruction set it will run faster than the equivalent 6510 routine. That is just a plain fact. Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:29 CDT 1997 Article: 68144 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 31 May 97 00:04:46 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 18 Message-ID: <552.7090T4T2318@airtime.co.uk> References: <+aUscDAVmojzEwqn@thespian.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38679 comp.sys.cbm:68144 comp.emulators.cbm:20726 On 30-May-97 The Starglider wrote: >As a little side-point here, a survey found a couple of years ago that >26% of Americans were convinced that the whole world was out to get >them, and of that 26%, 75% of them owned guns. With good reson. The whole world *is* out to get them. >That tells me something about the mentality of the Americans. Which is *why* we're out to get them. :-) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From not@this.address Wed Jun 4 16:53:32 CDT 1997 Article: 68297 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!24.113.1.6!news.van.rns.net!news.tvinet.com!not-for-mail From: Ron Tarrant Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 06:15:13 -0700 Organization: TVINET Internet Services Lines: 21 Message-ID: <33902461.11F1@this.address> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: not@this.address NNTP-Posting-Host: dial8.tvinet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38838 comp.sys.cbm:68297 comp.emulators.cbm:20846 The Brit wrote: > >>explain why you do not class > >>countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' > >>you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not > > The Yank wrote: > >Yeah, we kicked your ass in 1776 and again in 1812, so there. Sorry, Yank. You're wrong. In 1776, it was only with the help of the indians and the French that you kicked British ass. In 1812, the British burned your precious White House to the ground. You didn't win that one either. In fact, the Yanks have NEVER won a war without help, not even your own Civil War. The French helped you there too. Oh, and General Swartscough is a fucking weenie. That biography of him last week tried to say he was as good a general as some of the truly great warriors in history, including Rommel. Tell me, how does taking an army of 5,000,000 up against an enemy that only numbers around two hundred thousand make ANYONE a hero or even a good strategist? Fucking Yanks, all blow and no go. From leifm@huldre.heim Wed Jun 4 16:53:34 CDT 1997 Article: 68299 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!uninett.no!due.unit.no!huldre.heim!leifm From: Leif Roar Moldskred Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Followup-To: alt.flame Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:13:17 +0200 Organization: The Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33902461.11F1@this.address> NNTP-Posting-Host: isdn-a35.itea.unit.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970202] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38841 comp.sys.cbm:68299 comp.emulators.cbm:20848 In comp.emulators.cbm Ron Tarrant wrote: > Oh, and General Swartscough is a fucking weenie. That biography of him > last week tried to say he was as good a general as some of the truly > great warriors in history, including Rommel. Tell me, how does taking an > army of 5,000,000 up against an enemy that only numbers around two > hundred thousand make ANYONE a hero or even a good strategist? > Fucking Yanks, all blow and no go. Uhm - taking an army of 5 000 000 up against an enemy that only numbers around two hundred thousands pretty much _defines_ a goos strategist. ;-) Followups set to /dev/null (well, alt.flame actually; but there's not much of a difference.) Leif Roar Moldskred ============================================================= leifm@stud.ntnu.no Dimna or: Steinberget 35A (+47) 73 50 94 31 N-6065 Ulsteinvik N-7018 Trondheim ============================================================= I Oslo likar eg meg godt. Der kunne eg tenkje meg å ha hytte. - Einar Økland ============================================================= From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:38 CDT 1997 Article: 68406 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!newsfeed.nacamar.de!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:46:35 GMT Message-ID: <339722c9.8131218@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33902461.11F1@this.address> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38969 comp.sys.cbm:68406 comp.emulators.cbm:20923 Ron Tarrant wrote: >Sorry, Yank. You're wrong. In 1776, it was only with the help of the >indians and the French that you kicked British ass. >In 1812, the British burned your precious White House to the ground. You >didn't win that one either. In fact, the Yanks have NEVER won a war >without help, not even your own Civil War. The French helped you there >too. Well you could mention the very poor perfomance of US troops during the battle for Italy...especially at Monte Cassino...the only problems is we didn't show ourselves in a good light either... Rob. From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:41 CDT 1997 Article: 67739 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:28:55 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 18 Message-ID: <498.7085T1048T2767@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38097 comp.sys.cbm:67739 comp.emulators.cbm:20328 On 26-May-97 Russ Juckes wrote: >judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: >> Let's see Polygonamy. >You're too late for that. I've settled down with just the one girl now, and >left the other two (Andi & Sheena - regular posters here may remember the >names,) back oop north. Hey! I'm "oop north". Can I have their address ? :-) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:45 CDT 1997 Article: 68025 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!worldnet.att.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!raiden.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk (Russ Juckes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:00:53 BST Organization: Under the megatree Message-ID: References: <498.7085T1048T2767@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk [158.152.191.228] X-Newsreader: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Lines: 23 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38462 comp.sys.cbm:68025 comp.emulators.cbm:20608 hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote: > On 26-May-97 Russ Juckes wrote: >> You're too late for that. I've settled down with just the one girl >> now, and left the other two (Andi & Sheena - regular posters here may >> remember the names,) back oop north. > Hey! I'm "oop north". Can I have their address ? :-) Ha ha! It ain't worth it in the long run mate, trust me. It's a *lot* more work than you'd think, and not as much fun as you'd think either. I mean - do you take them both to the same restaurants, and get recognised by all the staff there, or do you take them to different places, and then forget which one you've taken where? It was terrible, I tell you. Six years though... -- "My God... It's full of stars..." russ_j@edgemail.ha1.com http://www.raiden.demon.co.uk From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:48 CDT 1997 Article: 68040 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 97 11:19:46 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 27 Message-ID: <967.7087T679T2335@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan27.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38515 comp.sys.cbm:68040 comp.emulators.cbm:20623 On 28-May-97 Russ Juckes wrote: >hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote: >> On 26-May-97 Russ Juckes wrote: >>> You're too late for that. I've settled down with just the one girl >>> now, and left the other two (Andi & Sheena - regular posters here may >>> remember the names,) back oop north. >> Hey! I'm "oop north". Can I have their address ? :-) >Ha ha! It ain't worth it in the long run mate, trust me. It's a *lot* more >work than you'd think, and not as much fun as you'd think either. >I mean - do you take them both to the same restaurants, and get recognised by >all the staff there, or do you take them to different places, and then forget >which one you've taken where? It was terrible, I tell you. Six years >though... Bloody hell! I'm impressed. ;-) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:52 CDT 1997 Article: 67740 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:36:40 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 19 Message-ID: <649.7085T1056T2017@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc693d$7c1b0b80$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38098 comp.sys.cbm:67740 comp.emulators.cbm:20329 On 25-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Arrggggghhh!!!!!!!! >I screwed it up *again*, what I was trying to say is, no one has >successfully emulated a CPC plus on the PC, yet. At least until Paul >Hogson's emulator is finsihed. :-) :-) I thought that's what you were trying to say, so I refrained from mentioning all the C64 emulators available. It's true there's no CPC+ emulator out there, even though there are some CPC ones. Is Paul's emulator going to be a portable one, or is it PC specific ? --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:54 CDT 1997 Article: 67809 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 06:43:14 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: <01bc6a69$33173300$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <01bc693d$7c1b0b80$04b8de8b@w9622136> <649.7085T1056T2017@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38189 comp.sys.cbm:67809 comp.emulators.cbm:20397 Bill Hoggett wrote in article <649.7085T1056T2017@airtime.co.uk>... > :-) I thought that's what you were trying to say, so I refrained from > mentioning all the C64 emulators available. It's true there's no CPC+ > emulator out there, even though there are some CPC ones. Is Paul's > emulator going to be a portable one, or is it PC specific ? Nah, better than that. It's Win 95 specific, *everyone* will just have to upgrade, Bill Gates will rule the world and we'll all wish we'd bought CPC+'s instead of PC's. Or something. > --- > Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) > > IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? And what are his monthly fees like? Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:53:57 CDT 1997 Article: 67834 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 09:42:57 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 35 Message-ID: <1066.7086T582T2858@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a69$33173300$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38221 comp.sys.cbm:67834 comp.emulators.cbm:20423 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><649.7085T1056T2017@airtime.co.uk>... >> :-) I thought that's what you were trying to say, so I refrained from >> mentioning all the C64 emulators available. It's true there's no CPC+ >> emulator out there, even though there are some CPC ones. Is Paul's >> emulator going to be a portable one, or is it PC specific ? >Nah, better than that. It's Win 95 specific, *everyone* will just have to >upgrade, Bill Gates will rule the world and we'll all wish we'd bought >CPC+'s instead of PC's. Aaaaaaargh! >Or something. >> --- >> Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) >> >> IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? >And what are his monthly fees like? Apparently you don't get charged monthly - the whole bill comes in just once. :) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:54:04 CDT 1997 Article: 67742 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:43:00 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 24 Message-ID: <923.7085T1063T19@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38100 comp.sys.cbm:67742 comp.emulators.cbm:20331 On 26-May-97 The Starglider wrote: >In article <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com>, Jason Compton > writes >>Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: >>: Yeah, and how many 2D games have you seen on the Playstation. Not a lot I >>: can tell you, simply because the hardware is much more suited to 3D. >> >>No, because Sony doesn't like to allow 2D games to be released on the >>Playstation. That's what delayed the release of Worms. >> >Well, then that's a bloody stupid thing to do on Sony's part, isn't it!! I think the idea is that 2D games don't show off the advantage of the Playstation graphics over most other platforms, hence they should be discouraged to enhance the machine's image. It's a *stupid* idea but there you are...> --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:54:07 CDT 1997 Article: 67741 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:46:55 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 25 Message-ID: <842.7085T1066T2767@airtime.co.uk> References: <338a5029.912999@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38099 comp.sys.cbm:67741 comp.emulators.cbm:20330 On 25-May-97 rjfm2 wrote: >Radioactive Warrior wrote: >>Well stated! ONLY a complete fool would buy a computer that didn't >>come with synthesized sound and advanced graphics base built in... The >>PC's are the TRS-80's of the present. I consider the c64 vastly >>superior to the TRS-80 as I consider the MAC vastly superior to the PC. >>Now that I've insulted 99% of the population, feel free to flame away... >MACs are crap...that my opinion.. >Never had a C64, but I was very disappointed with Uridium on a >emulator after all the hype. Having played Uridium on a real C64, my guess is that the emulator was crap. I agree about the Macs tho'... ;-) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Jun 4 16:54:20 CDT 1997 Article: 67706 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!scanner.worldgate.com!news.agtac.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!albrecht From: "Alvin R. Albrecht" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:22:42 -0600 Organization: Calgary Free-Net Lines: 126 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: albrecht@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38068 comp.sys.cbm:67706 comp.emulators.cbm:20290 On 25 May 1997, Stephen Judd wrote: > My friend, you are sadly, wholly, thoroughly mistaken in your assertions. > From them I deduce that: > a) You have no meaningful experience programming 6510s I have meaningful experience programming 6809s. I view the 6809 as a beefed up 6502(6510). Am I wrong in this assertion? > b) You have no meaningful experience programming C-64s. You are correct. > I, on the other hand, have no meaningful experiences programming Z80's > and Spectrums; the primary difference here is that I will make no > claims concerning the capabilities of the Spectrum. Why not? If you make a mistake, someone will correct you. I expect that when I make a "thoroughly mistaken" assertion that I will be corrected. > Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > >Let me make my point clearer then. Take your basic C64 + fancy hardware. > >This would be equivalent to a C64 running a 6510 that's say six times > Think so, eh? Here is a test for you: take a look at some of the CGA and EGA > games written for the IBMs around the same time. These are machines that > ran at 10MHz at least. The 8088 has multiple general-purpose registers, [ early PC games were crap despite the speed advantages of the hardware ] > ... and see for yourself how much CPU is needed to make > up for a simple graphics chip. > In fact, you are free to increase the processor speed by a factor of twenty. > If you think you can emulate sprites, well, I think you are quite wrong, > and I'd like to see you try. And yet the humble Spectrum running a 3.5MHz Z80 can smoothly animate larger and more sprites than the C64 and its special hardware. I picked a number 6, which seemed reasonable to me with a 6510. It's a flexible number, but I think you overestimate the amount of computing power required to put up sprites on a screen of the C64's resolution. Or perhaps I overestimate the speed of the 6510? A Z80 at 3.5 MHz can put up sprites adequately enough on a Spectrum resolution screen. On a Commodore 64's, with higher colour resolution, it'd have to be a bit faster, but not much. > As a matter of fact, I happen to have a 20MHz 65816 in my 64 here. What > do you know, I can do processing _and_ let VIC handle sprites and such. > How is a fast processor + no VIC superior to a fast processor+VIC? If the 20MHz C64 were available ten years ago, and you were making games using the built in sprite hardware, your competition would bury you because their software sprites would put your games to shame. Yes, the hardware makes your task easier as a programmer, but you'd have inferior results. Now pretend you are the hardware manufacturer. You have a C64 at 1MHz with the special chips and a C64ish at 20MHz with no chips. Which is more cost effective given that the 20MHz C64ish machine can do better graphics? Now I ask you, why do you want special chips in your C64 20MHz machine? Games can only go so fast. You can only make so much use of the original 64's screen resolution. Perhaps it would be time to upgrade the display? My original point was that a 1MHz C64 + video hardware is not superior to another computer without video hardware. Faster processors can make up for the difference + more. > The value of dedicated graphics chips is self-evident by simply examining > e.g. an arcade game, an SGI Iris, a Playstation, etc. The whole point Dedicated hardware allows a designer to select slower CPUs which lead to a simpler motherboard = lower costs. Now tell me, with this special display hardware, what would you say the lifetime of these machines are? How long would a machine that allowed you to upgrade to a faster processor last? Or a better resolution? (IE- this is your IBM PC. They haven't changed all that much over the years). > is that you can use the processor for things like computations, instead > of managing the screen. Yes, which buys you a short term advantage over competitors for a period of time. Then the hardware becomes a liability when competitors can produce equivalent machines without the hardware (ie lower cost). It is not a good idea to burn high level graphics support in hardware. > Keep in mind that the Commodore 64 had over a 10-year production run, and > sold more units than any other single machine type. That's not exactly the > sign of a computer which went obsolete 2-3 years after its introduction, > in fact it is the exact opposite. The C64 was made obsolete by the PC and other 16bit/32 bits that came out. The C64 survived in the low end 8bit market simply because the industry moved to 16bits and a higher cost bracket. The Spectrum was also a very successful computer with nearly 10 years of production. And the numbers would probably surprise you. > the video markets. That is a testament to the importance of a good > design -- how many PC's in "professional" use are more than 1-2 years > old? PCs haven't changed much over time. > The PC thrives on planned obsolescense -- because the processor does all > the work, you always need a faster processor. I'd rather have a computer > which was well-designed in the first place. No. You always need a faster processor because software writing is a business. Time is money and it always takes less time to produce software that runs adequately on the hardware owned by the majority of customers. That and the hype that drives people to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade. Alvin From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 16:54:28 CDT 1997 Article: 67811 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 1997 19:09:54 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 109 Message-ID: <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38191 comp.sys.cbm:67811 comp.emulators.cbm:20399 I think it's time to stand up with Stephen. In "Alvin R. Albrecht" writes: >I have meaningful experience programming 6809s. I view the 6809 as a >beefed up 6502(6510). Am I wrong in this assertion? Extremely wrong. The only thing 680x series have in common with 65xx is that they're bus compatible. They're not even made by the same company! If it were a beefed up 65xx, then you would expect to see the same opcodes, same quirks, etc., and you simply don't. >And yet the humble Spectrum running a 3.5MHz Z80 can smoothly animate >larger and more sprites than the C64 and its special hardware. Hmm. Let's test this assertion. In front of me is a C128 in 64 mode with a raster hack designed to force the VIC-II to repaint its sprites four times from four sets of shadow sprite registers. 32 sprites and negligible loss in speed. I've seen people make 64 sprite hacks. Do 64 sprites on a software-based video system and I guarantee you'll see the performance hit from hell. >Or perhaps I overestimate the speed of the 6510? A Z80 at 3.5 MHz can put >up sprites adequately enough on a Spectrum resolution screen. On a >Commodore 64's, with higher colour resolution, it'd have to be a bit >faster, but not much. This shows how LITTLE you know about the 64's video architecture. Sprites on the 64 are a totally different videoplane. They aren't treated as part of the hires matrix at all as far as the machine is concerned. (Witness the fact that sprites are totally functional in 40x25 text mode, which I doubt is possible on the Spectrums.) >Now I ask you, why do you want special chips in your C64 20MHz machine? >Games can only go so fast. You can only make so much use of the original >64's screen resolution. Perhaps it would be time to upgrade the display? Really? Why is it, then, that 486/66's seem to be restricted to 320x200 in most games I play? >Dedicated hardware allows a designer to select slower CPUs which lead to a >simpler motherboard = lower costs. Now tell me, with this special display >hardware, what would you say the lifetime of these machines are? How long >would a machine that allowed you to upgrade to a faster processor last? >Or a better resolution? (IE- this is your IBM PC. They haven't changed >all that much over the years). > >It is not a good idea to burn high level graphics support in hardware. So I assume you won't be buying your PC a 3-D accelerator card? How can you implement stuff like transparency, alpha-channel effects, MIP mapping, bi-/tri-linear filtering and all that good stuff with a faster and faster processor without wasting time on it? For the record, the 64 is totally upgradable. Didn't you read Stephen's point about the new SuperCPUs? Are you still going to claim that a 3.5MHz Spectrum with NO sidecar chips is going to wax a 20MHz, 16-bit C64 with an impressive list of dedicated hardware? Are you still going to claim that the 64's power has topped out? More importantly, the premise you're arguing under is 100% flawed. The argument that faster processors beat out dedicated hardware is flat out wrong. Want proof? The fastest computer in the world is not a Cray, it's a low-speed parallel processor unit used for calculating n-body problems. This unit, created by a Japanese astronomer and whimsically named GRAPE, uses a dedicated chip for one single calculation, which is gravimetric potential (as I recall). What the calculation is, isn't important. This machine is realizing petaFLOP speed without throwing brute force at the problem simply because it's always more efficient to make a dedicated solution than a versatile one. There's less code to go through. Read this article in Discover magazine (either the latest issue or the one before, I forget). Now you want to use the flexibility argument at me, right? Fine. You tell me one application that the Spectrum runs that the 64 with all its dedicated hardware does not. Don't name specific software packages at me because I don't know them. Tell me what type of software the Spectrum runs that the 64 doesn't, and I'm willing to bet I can prove you wrong. >> Keep in mind that the Commodore 64 had over a 10-year production run, and >> sold more units than any other single machine type. That's not exactly the >> sign of a computer which went obsolete 2-3 years after its introduction, >> in fact it is the exact opposite. >The C64 was made obsolete by the PC and other 16bit/32 bits that came out. >The C64 survived in the low end 8bit market simply because the industry >moved to 16bits and a higher cost bracket. And where did the Spectrum go? The Spectrum was just as obsolete and its market share sunk like cement. The 64 ruined many other 8-bit machines at the time, too. Where's the Acorn? The Exidy Sorceror? The CoCo? Heck, where's the MSXs? (Hint, one is in my closet.) >> The PC thrives on planned obsolescense -- because the processor does all >> the work, you always need a faster processor. I'd rather have a computer >> which was well-designed in the first place. >No. You always need a faster processor because software writing is a >business. Time is money and it always takes less time to produce software >that runs adequately on the hardware owned by the majority of customers. Would you like to tell that to me again? I write software professionally for the 64 as a side business. Somehow I haven't found the need to upgrade. I suppose I'm abnormal, I guess. Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu www.computerworkshops.home.ml.org/ From starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:54:31 CDT 1997 Article: 67816 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:19:20 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 30 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38197 comp.sys.cbm:67816 comp.emulators.cbm:20404 In article <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, Po-Ching Lives! writes >More importantly, the premise you're arguing under is 100% flawed. >The argument that faster processors beat out dedicated hardware is >flat out wrong. Want proof? The fastest computer in the world is not >a Cray, it's a low-speed parallel processor unit used for >calculating n-body problems. This unit, created by a Japanese >astronomer and whimsically named GRAPE, uses a dedicated chip for >one single calculation, which is gravimetric potential (as I >recall). What the calculation is, isn't important. This machine is >realizing petaFLOP speed without throwing brute force at the problem >simply because it's always more efficient to make a dedicated >solution than a versatile one. There's less code to go through. >Read this article in Discover magazine (either the latest issue or >the one before, I forget). > HA HA HA HA HA!!! YOU ARE WRONG! The fastest computer in the world is... wait for it... an Intel computer! Finished and tested literally at the start of this year, the Intel Supercomputer has over 2000 CPU's in it, and it is capable of 400 terraflops (trillion floating point processes per second). SO WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN TO YOU WHEN YOU CAN'T GET YOUR FLAWED FACTS RIGHT! -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * NVG UPDATES:nvg@thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ From leifm@huldre.heim Wed Jun 4 16:54:34 CDT 1997 Article: 67824 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!uninett.no!due.unit.no!huldre.heim!leifm From: Leif Roar Moldskred Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:06:01 +0200 Organization: The Norwegian University of Science and Technology Lines: 26 Distribution: world Message-ID: <9l4em5.4u.ln@localhost> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: isdn-a35.itea.unit.no X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970202] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38207 comp.sys.cbm:67824 comp.emulators.cbm:20413 In comp.emulators.cbm The Starglider wrote: > >What the calculation is, isn't important. This machine is > >realizing petaFLOP speed ^^^^^^^^ > HA HA HA HA HA!!! YOU ARE WRONG! The fastest computer in the world is... > wait for it... an Intel computer! Finished and tested literally at the > start of this year, the Intel Supercomputer has over 2000 CPU's in it, > and it is capable of 400 terraflops ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 400 terraflops = 400 * 10E12 = 0.4 petaflops. If the machine he mentioned do perform as well as it was claimed; the intel-computer is lagging _way_ behind. Leif Roar Moldskred ============================================================= leifm@stud.ntnu.no Dimna or: Steinberget 35A (+47) 73 50 94 31 N-6065 Ulsteinvik N-7018 Trondheim ============================================================= Questions are never indiscreet. Answers sometimes are. - Oscar Wilde ============================================================= From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 16:54:36 CDT 1997 Article: 68045 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 23:21:24 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5mielk$b4d$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <9l4em5.4u.ln@localhost> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38524 comp.sys.cbm:68045 comp.emulators.cbm:20628 In <9l4em5.4u.ln@localhost> Leif Roar Moldskred writes: >> >realizing petaFLOP speed >> HA HA HA HA HA!!! YOU ARE WRONG! The fastest computer in the world is... >> wait for it... an Intel computer! Finished and tested literally at the >> start of this year, the Intel Supercomputer has over 2000 CPU's in it, >> and it is capable of 400 terraflops >400 terraflops = 400 * 10E12 = 0.4 petaflops. Phew! I knew I *did* get the story right! Thanks, Leif. Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu www.computerworkshops.home.ml.org From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 16:54:39 CDT 1997 Article: 68044 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 23:18:54 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5miegu$b0m$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38523 comp.sys.cbm:68044 comp.emulators.cbm:20627 In The Starglider writes: >HA HA HA HA HA!!! YOU ARE WRONG! The fastest computer in the world is... >wait for it... an Intel computer! Finished and tested literally at the >start of this year, the Intel Supercomputer has over 2000 CPU's in it, >and it is capable of 400 terraflops (trillion floating point processes >per second). SO WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN TO YOU WHEN YOU CAN'T GET YOUR >FLAWED FACTS RIGHT! Cry in your coffee while I dig out the article, chucky boy. (to be continued) Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu From albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Jun 4 16:54:41 CDT 1997 Article: 68028 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!uchinews!news.spss.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.154.70.8!news.webspan.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!albrecht From: "Alvin R. Albrecht" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:39:22 -0600 Organization: Calgary Free-Net Lines: 245 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: albrecht@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38479 comp.sys.cbm:68028 comp.emulators.cbm:20611 On 26 May 1997, Po-Ching Lives! wrote: > >I have meaningful experience programming 6809s. I view the 6809 as a > >beefed up 6502(6510). Am I wrong in this assertion? > Extremely wrong. The only thing 680x series have in common with 65xx > is that they're bus compatible. They're not even made by the same > company! If it were a beefed up 65xx, then you would expect to see > the same opcodes, same quirks, etc., and you simply don't. If I remember correctly, the 6809 was designed first, then some engineers responsible for the 6809 left Motorola to form their own company and came out with the 6502. The fact that they're bus compatible indicates they certainly have a lot in common. I compared the 6502 to a 6809 a long time ago. The only differences were the 6809 had two 8 bit registers (rather than 1) that could be used as a single 16 bit register. Both were designed around the idea that registers could be emulated through fast access to RAM (page 0). Both had powerful addressing modes. The 6809 had some important advantages: two 16 bit index registers (rather than 8 bit) a 16 bit stack pointer (rather than 8 bit - v important IMO) The 6502 was intended to be a cheap, capable processor, but it wasn't intended to replace the 6809. If my memory isn't failing I also recall reading somewhere that Commodore selected the 6502 rather than the 6809 because of its price. The Z80 has a similar history; Zilog being formed by engineers leaving Intel. But the Z80 was an enhanced 8080 with hardware advantages. Out of curiosity, if someone can tell me, how similar are the instruction sets between the 6502 & 6809? Is there some binary compatibility? Are some instructions simply given different mnemonics? (In the Z80's case, it could run all 8080 software, with mnemonics changing names). > >And yet the humble Spectrum running a 3.5MHz Z80 can smoothly animate > >larger and more sprites than the C64 and its special hardware. > Hmm. Let's test this assertion. In front of me is a C128 in 64 mode with a > raster hack designed to force the VIC-II to repaint its sprites four > times from four sets of shadow sprite registers. 32 sprites and > negligible loss in speed. I've seen people make 64 sprite hacks. Do > 64 sprites on a software-based video system and I guarantee you'll > see the performance hit from hell. What are the sprite sizes & resolutions? What is the frame rate (sounds like your dropping the frame rate there - is there flicker?) I haven't seen more than 16 sprites on the screen at once at about 16x24 pixels on a Spectrum. I also can't imagine a game would use many more than that otherwise the screen would be full. There are a few things you can't argue away. 1. You can do sprites in software 2. The faster the CPU, the larger the sprites can become and the larger in number you can have. 3. There is a point where the C64's 6510 can be sped up to to emulate the C64's display hardware (I have no doubt Stephen's 20MHz 6510 can do it). 4. Other 8bit CPUs are faster than the 6510 and they were used in other machines without much display hardware. On those machines, sprites were done software and I'm arguing they did it as well as what the C64 did. The difference in appearance is due to different colour resolutions. Andy brought in the CPC - another Z80 based competitor in Europe with similar colour resolution of the C64. You can argue what resolution is better for games. Because of the hardware, the C64 has better colour resolution than the Spectrum. The Spectrum has better pixel resolution (you don't have a choice in the pixel dimensions of a C64 sprite and I'm also arguing the C64 isn't quick enough to do larger sprites in software). Because of the faster CPU in the Spectrum, it could do games that can't be boiled down to a finite number of sprites better than the C64 (Command Carrier is done in shaded 3d on the Spectrum, but in 2d overhead view on the C64). The C64 has a powerful sound chip. The UK 48k Spectrum had a beeper. The US 48k Spectrum had the AY chip (also used in the CPC, Atari ST, 128k Spectrum, etc.) The SID = AY + ability to put distinct envelopes on all channels rather than just one. Also has LP/BP filtering. There are probably a few more differences that aren't coming to mind right now. Both had great music written for them. On my US 48k Spectrum, I can play .wav, .au, etc. in mono at rates between 1 and 55kHz and in stereo at between 1 and 23kHz (4 bit samples). That's a testament to the processor's speed, I believe. > This shows how LITTLE you know about the 64's video architecture. > Sprites on the 64 are a totally different videoplane. They aren't > treated as part of the hires matrix at all as far as the machine is > concerned. Absolutely not. I am fully aware what sprites done in hardware are. My argument all along has been that it isn't a good idea to set sprite characteristics in hardware because sooner rather than later there will be a CPU available that can do better in software. At that point the hardware is obsolete. I am also arguing that there were CPUs available at that time that were fast enough to do the same thing in software, namely the Z80, 8080 and possibly the 6809. By designing special hardware, Commodore could select a CPU like the 6502 to run the machine. I am *not* knocking the 6502 (some of you seem a little sensitive) - it is an interesting processor in its own right, but it wasn't the fastest. > (Witness the fact that sprites are totally functional in > 40x25 text mode, which I doubt is possible on the Spectrums.) I think you've misunderstood what software sprites are. On the Spectrum, *everything* is drawn on the screen bitmap - sprites, text, circles, lines, whatever - there is no distinction. All these things can quite happily exist together. The process of moving a sprite is in simple terms, erase it by drawing what was underneath it, change coordinate, draw it again while saving what was underneath it. If the 1MHz 6502 were fast enough, the programmers could take advantage of the "hacked" video modes on the C64 and deliver some higher resolution graphics in their games. > >Now I ask you, why do you want special chips in your C64 20MHz machine? > >Games can only go so fast. You can only make so much use of the original > >64's screen resolution. Perhaps it would be time to upgrade the display? > Really? Why is it, then, that 486/66's seem to be restricted to > 320x200 in most games I play? I don't know. Perhaps delivering to the lowest common denominator. The fact that the 8 bit 3.5MHz Spectrum can put up at least 16 sprites on a 256x192 screen should leave you with little doubt that 486/66 can do it on a 320x200 or 640x400 or .. > >It is not a good idea to burn high level graphics support in hardware. > So I assume you won't be buying your PC a 3-D accelerator card? How > can you implement stuff like transparency, alpha-channel effects, > MIP mapping, bi-/tri-linear filtering and all that good stuff with a > faster and faster processor without wasting time on it? For the The processor is wasting time only if it has to wait between frames to slow the game down. I view software driven features are far more cost effective than hardware features - and they can improve with time. > record, the 64 is totally upgradable. Didn't you read Stephen's > point about the new SuperCPUs? Are you still going to claim that a > 3.5MHz Spectrum with NO sidecar chips is going to wax a 20MHz, > 16-bit C64 with an impressive list of dedicated hardware? Are you No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. Don't pretend that the 6510 is the only thing that can go 20MHz. There is a Z380 available. > still going to claim that the 64's power has topped out? The 1MHz C64 is topped out. I'm not talking about 20MHz C64s. My point has been the special hardware is outclassed by Stephen's 20MHz CPU. > More importantly, the premise you're arguing under is 100% flawed. > The argument that faster processors beat out dedicated hardware is I'm sorry, you can't win that argument. How many Nintendos have we been through in the last ten years? > flat out wrong. Want proof? The fastest computer in the world is not > a Cray, it's a low-speed parallel processor unit used for > calculating n-body problems. This unit, created by a Japanese > astronomer and whimsically named GRAPE, uses a dedicated chip for > one single calculation, which is gravimetric potential (as I > recall). What the calculation is, isn't important. This machine is > realizing petaFLOP speed without throwing brute force at the problem > simply because it's always more efficient to make a dedicated > solution than a versatile one. There's less code to go through. This is speed realized through parallelization. In the same way RISC CPUs are faster than their clock rates indicate because they're doing ten things at once. Your argument does not apply. I will claim that if this computer had all its processors increased in speed two times, it would be twice as fast :-). > Now you want to use the flexibility argument at me, right? Fine. You A computer is supposed to be flexible. A games console plays games. > tell me one application that the Spectrum runs that the 64 with all > its dedicated hardware does not. Don't name specific software > packages at me because I don't know them. Tell me what type of > software the Spectrum runs that the 64 doesn't, and I'm willing to > bet I can prove you wrong. -Anything with 3d vector graphics are done faster on the Spectrum or not at all on the C64 (Starglider) -Any freescape game: games with solid & shaded 1st person 3d view (Castle Master, Carrier Command - the C64's version is overhead 2d view) -Anything to do with number crunching is faster on the Spectrum (spreadsheets), though nothing is stopping the C64 from doing it. > >The C64 was made obsolete by the PC and other 16bit/32 bits that came out. > >The C64 survived in the low end 8bit market simply because the industry > >moved to 16bits and a higher cost bracket. > And where did the Spectrum go? The Spectrum was just as obsolete and > its market share sunk like cement. The 64 ruined many other 8-bit Not true. The Spectrum was manufactured up to 1990 (?). The size of the Spectrum's software base proves its market share was significant. The same can be said of the C64. Both were made obsolete by 16bits and 32bits. BTW, there were other 8 bit computers made that have far better characteristics than either machine, but they did not take off underlying the point that the days of the 8 bit were over. > machines at the time, too. Where's the Acorn? The Exidy Sorceror? > The CoCo? Heck, where's the MSXs? (Hint, one is in my closet.) I still see CoCos (Dragons I believe in Europe). Acorn is now 32bit and RISC based. MSX - I've never seen one. > >No. You always need a faster processor because software writing is a > >business. Time is money and it always takes less time to produce software > >that runs adequately on the hardware owned by the majority of customers. > Would you like to tell that to me again? I write software > professionally for the 64 as a side business. Somehow I haven't > found the need to upgrade. I suppose I'm abnormal, I guess. The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen have a 20MHz C64). When you write software for your C64 do you target the original 1MHZ C64? The PC software writers don't target the 8086, 286, 386 or 486. They only write for Pentiums. They don't care that their software is too slow on anything other than a Pentium. To make things fast enough on lower grade machines would require more time, effort and money - why bother when the market share is in Pentiums? Alvin From xmikex@eyrie.org Wed Jun 4 16:54:47 CDT 1997 Article: 67708 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.Stanford.EDU!nntp.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail From: xmikex@eyrie.org (XmikeX) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 17:53:58 -0700 Organization: The Eyrie Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5mfvn6$ocd@eyrie.org> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: eyrie.stanford.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38070 comp.sys.cbm:67708 comp.emulators.cbm:20292 Some Spectrum d00d blurted : >The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen >have a 20MHz C64). When you write software for your C64 do you target the >original 1MHZ C64? The PC software writers don't target the 8086, 286, >386 or 486. They only write for Pentiums. They don't care that their >software is too slow on anything other than a Pentium. To make things >fast enough on lower grade machines would require more time, effort and >money - why bother when the market share is in Pentiums? -- Well, "Stephen" has a 20 mhz 65816 accelerator which he purchased from the people at this webpage -> http://www.cmdweb.com and apparently, others have the same unit...enough so that CMD (lucky for them :) is still solvent. ....And CMD stands for Creative Micro Devices...not CoMmoDore... :) However, you may be surprised that one of the major limiting factors to upgradability is not the hardware, but the mindset that existed for many years, "Write software to the lowest common denominator...", they said. Most people did and still do write software for original 1 mhz 64 and 1541. Others write for expanded machines but you will not find the megalomania to "upgrade" that is so pervasive on some other platforms. If these C64 users do have the upgrade-fever, they are most likely upgrading their PC machines to get faster speed for C64 emulation. :) Anyways, one benefit of the LCD-mindset was that software became incredibly efficient. Someone on the spectrum side was arguing about how crappy the C64 basic, et al., is/was... Fine :)... It was also fast, compact, and forced a number of users to learn efficient assembly coding. It has been argued that the C64 produced more efficient programmers than any other system. It is a real shame that the market place now favors the inefficient and dirty programmer. I guess in that case, the legacy of Atari, Apple, IBM, and Spectrum, live on.. (I'm just kidding... The Spectrum was even more limited than the C64, which - in theory - should have birthed better programmers but then again, there is only so much that can be done with a z80, some string, and a condom...). XmX -- Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, 227, any and all nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to xmikex@eyrie.stanford.edu or xmikex@eyrie.org is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 US. E-mailing denotes unconditional acceptance by both sender and any organization represented in the aforementioned nonsolicited commercial E-mail. --->> "By US Code Title 47, Sec.227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem/printer meets the definition of a telephone fax machine. Sec.227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited advertisement to such equipment. Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned Section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation." From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:54:50 CDT 1997 Article: 68367 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 28 May 1997 13:21:07 GMT Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mhbg3$fse$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <5mfvn6$ocd@eyrie.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38931 comp.sys.cbm:68367 comp.emulators.cbm:20897 XmikeX (xmikex@eyrie.org) wrote: : It is a real shame that the market place now favors the inefficient and dirty : programmer. I guess in that case, the legacy of Atari, Apple, IBM, and : Spectrum, live on.. Ahem! : (I'm just kidding... Good.... : The Spectrum was even more limited than the C64, which : - in theory - should have birthed better programmers but then again, there is : only so much that can be done with a z80, some string, and a condom...). They did birth better programmers. Unfortunately, microsoft now rules the world, and all their programmers started with mega-fast, over-powered, more-memory-than-they-knew-what-to-do-with-machines. Current programmers are spoiled rotten. They should be FORCED to program in an enviroment with less than 1 Meg until they LEARN to program properly. Also, 'C' doesn't help, cos that produces memory hungry code. -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 16:54:53 CDT 1997 Article: 68493 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 15:50:56 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 20 Message-ID: <33941330.1E45@adm.hioslo.no> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <5mfvn6$ocd@eyrie.org> <5mhbg3$fse$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39034 comp.sys.cbm:68493 comp.emulators.cbm:20978 Spike wrote: > > XmikeX (xmikex@eyrie.org) wrote: > : The Spectrum was even more limited than the C64, which > : - in theory - should have birthed better programmers but then again, there is > : only so much that can be done with a z80, some string, and a condom...). > > They did birth better programmers. > Unfortunately, microsoft now rules the world, and all their programmers > started with mega-fast, over-powered, > more-memory-than-they-knew-what-to-do-with-machines. > > Current programmers are spoiled rotten. They should be FORCED to program in > an enviroment with less than 1 Meg until they LEARN to program properly. Many of them did just that. They started with MSDOS... Did it help? --- Ivar Fiske From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 16:54:58 CDT 1997 Article: 67770 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:04:36 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <338c6b39.3083495@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <5mfvn6$ocd@eyrie.org> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38140 comp.sys.cbm:67770 comp.emulators.cbm:20361 On 27 May 1997 17:53:58 -0700, xmikex@eyrie.org (XmikeX) wrote: >Anyways, one benefit of the LCD-mindset was that software became incredibly >efficient. Someone on the spectrum side was arguing about how crappy the >C64 basic, et al., is/was... Fine :)... It was also fast, compact, and >forced a number of users to learn efficient assembly coding. It has been >argued that the C64 produced more efficient programmers than any other system. >It is a real shame that the market place now favors the inefficient and dirty >programmer. I guess in that case, the legacy of Atari, Apple, IBM, and >Spectrum, live on.. Actually when it comes to bloated inefficient code, I can think we can lay the blame firmly at MS's door; Windows & VB has a lot to answer for. Most Speccy stuff was so tightly coded that only a few bytes (if any) were left over; I moved on from Sinclair BASIC to Z80, then onto an ST where I never bothered with anything besides pure 68000 until being forced to learn C. Which reminds me about bloat again ;) -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From felinoid@ccnet.com Wed Jun 4 16:55:02 CDT 1997 Article: 68034 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!usc!ccnet.com!ccnet.com!not-for-mail From: felinoid@ccnet.com (Jeffery C McLean) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 27 May 1997 20:20:53 -0700 Organization: CCnet Communications (510-988-7140 guest) Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5mg8al$3tv$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccnet3.ccnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38488 comp.sys.cbm:68034 comp.emulators.cbm:20617 Alvin R. Albrecht (albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca) wrote: : The 6502 was intended to be a cheap, capable processor, but it wasn't : intended to replace the 6809. If my memory isn't failing I also recall : reading somewhere that Commodore selected the 6502 rather than the 6809 : because of its price. That isn't the story I got... Basicly MOS (the makers of the 6502?!? Most likely sence chip makers as small as MOS don't often get "Second source" contracts) was having problems... the typowriter company Commodore bought them up.. By then Commodore already made many electronic nick nacks but building electronic typowriters were there big thing... A tec in MOS at the time was working on a device.. He couldn't get his hands on a computer to test it so he built a simple test terminal out of scrap parts laying around... The hardware he was working on conected to the computer vea a GPIB so this teriminal would have a GPIB a keyboard a tape to load and save programs and run Basic... the owner of Commodore sent his execs though MOS so they could start making there money back on the investment... The execs found this test terminal and realised they had a compleatly new home computer... even thow the tecnition who built it didn't see it that way... Commodore didn't pick the 6502... Commodore just bought a failing chip maker and got a compleat computer in the bargen... And thats how the PET came into being... or at last thats the rummor that gose around... Thats also who a typowriter manufacturer came to build a computer with a realy lousy keyboard... (The original pet keyboard)... Jeff From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:06 CDT 1997 Article: 68364 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 13:23:54 GMT Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mhbla$fse$4@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <5mg8al$3tv$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38921 comp.sys.cbm:68364 comp.emulators.cbm:20894 Jeffery C McLean (felinoid@ccnet.com) wrote: : Thats also who a typowriter manufacturer came to build a computer : with a realy lousy keyboard... (The original pet keyboard)... GOD don't remind me! That keyboard was WORSE than the Speccy OR the ZX81! (Our computer club used to have one of those..... Back in '82) -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| | |Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" | |Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! | |Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From macbeth@tbaytel.net Wed Jun 4 16:55:10 CDT 1997 Article: 67891 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.bellglobal.com!bellglobal.com!not-for-mail From: Robin Harbron Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:05:03 -0400 Organization: Arkanix Labs Lines: 115 Message-ID: <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: macbeth@tbaytel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.47.150.97 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38284 comp.sys.cbm:67891 comp.emulators.cbm:20477 Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > > Hmm. Let's test this assertion. In front of me is a C128 in 64 mode with a > > raster hack designed to force the VIC-II to repaint its sprites four > > times from four sets of shadow sprite registers. 32 sprites and > > negligible loss in speed. I've seen people make 64 sprite hacks. Do > > 64 sprites on a software-based video system and I guarantee you'll > > see the performance hit from hell. > > What are the sprite sizes & resolutions? What is the frame rate (sounds > like your dropping the frame rate there - is there flicker?) I haven't > seen more than 16 sprites on the screen at once at about 16x24 pixels on a > Spectrum. I also can't imagine a game would use many more than that > otherwise the screen would be full. Sprite size is 24x21 pixels... and no, the frame rate is a full 60 frames (or 50 if you live over there :) per second. And no flicker, unless more than 8 sprites are on the same horizontal line. And depending on how this is written, you could still have a very large percentage of your CPU time free... Because the hardware is doing almost all the work still. > There are a few things you can't argue away. > > 1. You can do sprites in software Not exactly, but close... the sprites are not at all restricted by what is going on with the screen behind the sprites... i.e. colours are completely independant. > 2. The faster the CPU, the larger the sprites can become and the larger > in number you can have. Yup. > 3. There is a point where the C64's 6510 can be sped up to to emulate the > C64's display hardware (I have no doubt Stephen's 20MHz 6510 can do it). No, see #1... Most _Pentiums_ have a hard time emulating the C64's display hardware... try one, you'll see. I have the 20Mhz board as well (many of us do now) which I'll use to push the 64's display hardware even further, not replace it. > Absolutely not. I am fully aware what sprites done in hardware are. My > argument all along has been that it isn't a good idea to set sprite > characteristics in hardware because sooner rather than later there will be > a CPU available that can do better in software. At that point the > hardware is obsolete. I am also arguing that there were CPUs available at > that time that were fast enough to do the same thing in software, namely > the Z80, 8080 and possibly the 6809. I don't think that there is much of a use for better sprites given the 64's resolution (pixels & colours)... Better off having them, then not. > If the 1MHz 6502 were fast enough, the programmers could take advantage of > the "hacked" video modes on the C64 and deliver some higher resolution > graphics in their games. We're doing this now with our 20Mhz machines... > No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on > Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. Wrong, wrong, wrong... the hardware is enhanced... you gotta play with this stuff. > -Anything with 3d vector graphics are done faster on the Spectrum or not > at all on the C64 (Starglider) No argument, faster processor can draw faster lines... > -Any freescape game: games with solid & shaded 1st person 3d view (Castle > Master, Carrier Command - the C64's version is overhead 2d view) But you're wrong here... C64 version is solid & shaded 1st person 3d view also, but I can understand if it runs slower than your version. From memory, it did just a few frames a second. > The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen > have a 20MHz C64). When you write software for your C64 do you target the > original 1MHZ C64? The PC software writers don't target the 8086, 286, > 386 or 486. They only write for Pentiums. They don't care that their > software is too slow on anything other than a Pentium. To make things > fast enough on lower grade machines would require more time, effort and > money - why bother when the market share is in Pentiums? C64 is very upgradeable... I just bought the 20Mhz board for $200, plugged it in the back of the machine like a big cart. and it ran faster :) Bought a 1.6 MB 3.5" floppy drive, daisychained it in with my old 1541 5.25" drive, and it worked :) Bought a T232, plugged it in, now my serial port runs at 230kbs :) And most of my time on the net is my 64 with my USR 33.6 modem... I'm doing all I want, and having a great time playing and programming this thing... a dream for program development. Completely crash my machine, and I can be back to my assembler in two seconds... literally... I'm in love! :) Robin Harbron (Macbeth/PSW) macbeth@tbaytel.net From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:13 CDT 1997 Article: 67759 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 14:05:48 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 87 Message-ID: <01bc6b70$30131f40$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38125 comp.sys.cbm:67759 comp.emulators.cbm:20350 Robin Harbron wrote in article <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net>... > Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > > Sprite size is 24x21 pixels... and no, the frame rate is a full 60 > frames > (or 50 if you live over there :) per second. And no flicker, unless > more > than 8 sprites are on the same horizontal line. And depending on how > this > is written, you could still have a very large percentage of your CPU > time > free... Because the hardware is doing almost all the work still. I take it your talking about what Amiga owners called 'Virtual Sprites'. I did the same thing on a CPC+ once, which had 16*16*16 sprites. So you could get 16 on a line. However as I remember it the processor had to do a lot of work flicking between sprite positions. Are you sure this didn't happen on the 64? > > There are a few things you can't argue away. > > > > 1. You can do sprites in software > > Not exactly, but close... the sprites are not at all restricted by what > is going on with the screen behind the sprites... i.e. colours are > completely > independant. Depends on your definition really. I mean speccy games didn't exactly overflow with colour anyway. Although games like popeye proved that it could do large sprites with their own colours, and they were a lot bigger than 24*21 pixels. > I don't think that there is much of a use for better sprites given the > 64's > resolution (pixels & colours)... Better off having them, then not. > Yeah, but if it'd had a fast processor and a good video display you could've done without them. > > No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on > > Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. > > Wrong, wrong, wrong... the hardware is enhanced... you gotta play with > this stuff. I bet this has more to do with the rather quirky display used on the C64 more than the fact that sprites are so good. > > -Any freescape game: games with solid & shaded 1st person 3d view (Castle > > Master, Carrier Command - the C64's version is overhead 2d view) > > But you're wrong here... C64 version is solid & shaded 1st person 3d > view > also, but I can understand if it runs slower than your version. From > memory, it did just a few frames a second. Yeah, castle master is, even if it is *sooooo* slow. Carrier command OTOH is 2D. > C64 is very upgradeable... I just bought the 20Mhz board for $200, > plugged What's that in UK pounds. I reckon you could've probably picked up a second A500 for very little these days and produced much better stuff. > I'm doing all I want, and having a great time playing and programming > this > thing... a dream for program development. Completely crash my machine, > and > I can be back to my assembler in two seconds... literally... I'm in > love! :) So could us CPC owners with our loverly *sideways* ROMS. 'Course our disc drives could get our source code back faster. ;-) Andy -- I keep telling myself that I won't be drawn on this anymore, esp as I'm begin to sound like a CPC phile. :-) From macbeth@tbaytel.net Wed Jun 4 16:55:15 CDT 1997 Article: 67773 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.bellglobal.com!bellglobal.com!not-for-mail From: Robin Harbron Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:20:26 -0400 Organization: Arkanix Labs Lines: 55 Message-ID: <338C857A.544@tbaytel.net> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> <01bc6b70$30131f40$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: macbeth@tbaytel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.47.150.82 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38151 comp.sys.cbm:67773 comp.emulators.cbm:20364 Andrew Cadley wrote: > I take it your talking about what Amiga owners called 'Virtual Sprites'. I > did the same thing on a CPC+ once, which had 16*16*16 sprites. So you could > get 16 on a line. However as I remember it the processor had to do a lot of > work flicking between sprite positions. Are you sure this didn't happen on > the 64? It may be the same... there is some overhead, but not all that much... I've got about 16,000 cycles per frame to play with... I'm guessing you could move all the sprites and set up the new registers in 500 cycles pretty easily... > Depends on your definition really. I mean speccy games didn't exactly > overflow with colour anyway. Although games like popeye proved that it > could do large sprites with their own colours, and they were a lot bigger > than 24*21 pixels. My definition of sprites is the Commodore 64 definition :) And we too had some of those games with the huge "sprites", like Trapdoor, and Popeye, etc. Pretty funny looking, but cool, I guess. > Yeah, but if it'd had a fast processor and a good video display you > could've done without them. _Could_ do without them, sure, but it's even nicer having them. > > C64 is very upgradeable... I just bought the 20Mhz board for $200, > > plugged > > What's that in UK pounds. I reckon you could've probably picked up a second > A500 for very little these days and produced much better stuff. Um... $200 is roughly?? 100 pounds? Somewhere around there. I've had an A500 since about '88 or '89... but it just isn't as much fun to code on. And yes, I could buy one for cheap, but this makes a platform that I'm very comfortable with that much better. > > I'm doing all I want, and having a great time playing and programming this > > thing... a dream for program development. Completely crash my machine, and > > I can be back to my assembler in two seconds... literally... I'm in > > love! :) > > So could us CPC owners with our loverly *sideways* ROMS. 'Course our disc > drives could get our source code back faster. ;-) Sorry, I should spell out everything... 2 seconds with source code intact... It's stored in a seperate RAM bank... don't even have to reload the source >from disk at all. And I doubt your disk drive is better than mine... :) FD-2000, which is a 3.5" drive that stores 1.6MB per disk. Most of still coding, etc. are using something new like this. My old drive is still around when needed tho. From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:18 CDT 1997 Article: 67775 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 20:23:11 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 97 Message-ID: <01bc6ba4$e7f2f840$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> <01bc6b70$30131f40$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338C857A.544@tbaytel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38154 comp.sys.cbm:67775 comp.emulators.cbm:20368 Robin Harbron wrote in article <338C857A.544@tbaytel.net>... > Andrew Cadley wrote: > > > I take it your talking about what Amiga owners called 'Virtual Sprites'. I > > did the same thing on a CPC+ once, which had 16*16*16 sprites. So you could > > get 16 on a line. However as I remember it the processor had to do a lot of > > work flicking between sprite positions. Are you sure this didn't happen on > > the 64? > > It may be the same... there is some overhead, but not all that much... > I've got about 16,000 cycles per frame to play with... I'm guessing you > could move all the sprites and set up the new registers in 500 cycles > pretty easily... Well moving sprites, etc is the same as reading at writing to RAM, 'cos of the way the ASIC worked. I guess you could probably do it, making use of line interrupts and stuff but it probably isn't really worth it in a game, the CPC is perfectly capable of software sprites. > > Depends on your definition really. I mean speccy games didn't exactly > > overflow with colour anyway. Although games like popeye proved that it > > could do large sprites with their own colours, and they were a lot bigger > > than 24*21 pixels. > > My definition of sprites is the Commodore 64 definition :) And we too > had some of those games with the huge "sprites", like Trapdoor, and > Popeye, etc. Pretty funny looking, but cool, I guess. hmm, well my I'd define hardware and software sprites seperately. For example CPC software sprites could easily match C64 ones, without the limitations. Amiga's had the nicest H/W sprites 'cos of all that multiple depths and dual bitplane stuff. Before you say it I know C64 sprites can go in foront and behind the screen, CPC+ ones can't. > > Yeah, but if it'd had a fast processor and a good video display you > > could've done without them. > > _Could_ do without them, sure, but it's even nicer having them. > Agreed, up till the point where the processor starts getting faster. I like em on the CPC+ 'cos you can do resolutions the screen can't. > > What's that in UK pounds. I reckon you could've probably picked up a second > > A500 for very little these days and produced much better stuff. > > Um... $200 is roughly?? 100 pounds? Somewhere around there. > I've had an A500 since about '88 or '89... but it just isn't as much > fun to code on. And yes, I could buy one for cheap, but this makes > a platform that I'm very comfortable with that much better. > I'd have to disagree there, get yourself a copy of blitz basic 2 and start writing multiple bitplane stuff, you'll soon forget the C64. ;-) I *wish* it was so easy to get into programming the PC. I'm gonna have to upgrade my RAM and take advantage of student licences before I can get my hands on the latest version of Visual C++, replete with all the DirectX tools. :-( > > > I'm doing all I want, and having a great time playing and programming this > > > thing... a dream for program development. Completely crash my machine, and > > > I can be back to my assembler in two seconds... literally... I'm in > > > love! :) > > > > So could us CPC owners with our loverly *sideways* ROMS. 'Course our disc > > drives could get our source code back faster. ;-) > > Sorry, I should spell out everything... 2 seconds with source code > intact... > It's stored in a seperate RAM bank... don't even have to reload the > source > from disk at all. And I doubt your disk drive is better than mine... :) Well the CPC's extra banks weren't cleared on reset either, but I'm assuming that the machine totally locked up and I'd had to do the old On/Off switch thing. My code tended to like doing stuff like that. > FD-2000, which is a 3.5" drive that stores 1.6MB per disk. CPC's could use standard 3.5" disk drives and a variety of formats. Mine however still relies on it's cranky and obscure 3" internal one. :-( Andy From albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Jun 4 16:55:20 CDT 1997 Article: 68059 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news.he.net!scanner.worldgate.com!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!albrecht From: "Alvin R. Albrecht" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:51:58 -0600 Organization: Calgary Free-Net Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: albrecht@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <338C2D7F.666F@tbaytel.net> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38549 comp.sys.cbm:68059 comp.emulators.cbm:20642 On Wed, 28 May 1997, Robin Harbron wrote: > > What are the sprite sizes & resolutions? What is the frame rate (sounds > > like your dropping the frame rate there - is there flicker?) I haven't > > seen more than 16 sprites on the screen at once at about 16x24 pixels on a > > Spectrum. I also can't imagine a game would use many more than that > > otherwise the screen would be full. > Sprite size is 24x21 pixels... and no, the frame rate is a full 60 > frames In case there is any confusion, the Spectrum is not limited to just 24x21 sprites - they can be as large as you like and at maximum screen resolution (none of that times two size stuff). > > There are a few things you can't argue away. > > 1. You can do sprites in software > Not exactly, but close... the sprites are not at all restricted by what > is going on with the screen behind the sprites... i.e. colours are > completely > independant. This depends on your display hardware. In a system where there is no such thing as a colour pallette or you use only the maximum number of colours that can be displayed at once, there are also no restrictions. > > 3. There is a point where the C64's 6510 can be sped up to to emulate the > > C64's display hardware (I have no doubt Stephen's 20MHz 6510 can do it). > No, see #1... Most _Pentiums_ have a hard time emulating the C64's I was waiting for this to come up! Given what I've heard here that the emulators are having such a hard time. But you have to remember: the Pentium is emulating the 6502, SID, VIC2 on a cycle to cycle basis on a much higher resolution screen. You could get lightning quick C64 sprites if the Pentium was just being itself rather than trying to act like a 64. > hardware... try one, you'll see. I have the 20Mhz board as well (many > of > us do now) which I'll use to push the 64's display hardware even > further, > not replace it. Even with the AFI, FLI modes? You want to stick with 24x21 sprites with limited colours? Why not hop into really hi-res huge software sprites that can be attained using AFI/FLI? > I don't think that there is much of a use for better sprites given the > 64's > resolution (pixels & colours)... Better off having them, then not. OK, fair enough. But I think it would be nice to make larger, more detailed sprites on that resolution. The Spectrum benefitted from it. > > If the 1MHz 6502 were fast enough, the programmers could take advantage of > > the "hacked" video modes on the C64 and deliver some higher resolution > > graphics in their games. > We're doing this now with our 20Mhz machines... My point exactly. Your faster CPUs will do better than the C64 display hardware. > > No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on > > Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. > Wrong, wrong, wrong... the hardware is enhanced... you gotta play with > this stuff. It is enhanced - to the point that it looks better without the old stuff. If you want to argue it's easier on the brain to use the hardware, no argument from me. > C64 is very upgradeable... I just bought the 20Mhz board for $200, > plugged > it in the back of the machine like a big cart. and it ran faster :) What I really was getting at with that statement was that you still aim software at ye olde 1MHz C64 unlike the PC crowd. > I'm doing all I want, and having a great time playing and programming > this > thing... a dream for program development. Completely crash my machine, > and > I can be back to my assembler in two seconds... literally... I'm in There you go, a C64 put to good use. Alvin From natedac@dfw.dfw.net Wed Jun 4 16:55:23 CDT 1997 Article: 68052 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dfw.net!dfw.dfw.net!natedac From: Nate_DAC Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:19:44 -0500 Organization: DFW Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 248 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfw.dfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: "Alvin R. Albrecht" In-Reply-To: Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38531 comp.sys.cbm:68052 comp.emulators.cbm:20635 > What are the sprite sizes & resolutions? What is the frame rate (sounds He'S referring to what I calla raster cut, casuing the VIC chip to duplicate the sprites. Each gets it'S own image. There is no flicker, the frame rate remains at 60Hz, as always. the only loss is a slight loss in the speed of the processor, since there is that software routine doing these raster cuts. Sprite size is still the same, 24x21 pixels. By using simple raster cuts (sometimes also called Multiplexers) you can stack sprites, to increase the size, with little loss in speed. All of this is done on a plain, un-accellerated C64. > 1. You can do sprites in software Yep. Sucks processor power down, but doable. > 2. The faster the CPU, the larger the sprites can become and the larger > in number you can have. Correct again, but this is also dependent on the routines used to draw these sprites. Increased speed doesn't immediately make the sprites bigger, or more detailed, it simply opens a door. If a programmer doesn't take advantage of this (which it appears that they do), you never see the increase. > 3. There is a point where the C64's 6510 can be sped up to to emulate the > C64's display hardware (I have no doubt Stephen's 20MHz 6510 can do it). Actually, due to the speed at which a regular C64 accesses it's display hardware, it'S not possible to outrun the stock screen. What is necessary for this to happen is a means to control and display video, without any slowdowns. In other words a video controller capable of handling the full onslaught of a 20Mhz bus. At this point, then it is possible to emulate the VIC chip itself to some extent. Of course all of this is pointless when you consider that the average programmer is going to use the extra speed for what it'S really needed for, i.e. math and graphics routines (rather than emulating some hardware feature). FWIW, I have one of these 20MHz accellerators, and am quite pleased with it. > You can argue what resolution is better for games. Because of the > hardware, the C64 has better colour resolution than the Spectrum. The > Spectrum has better pixel resolution (you don't have a choice in the pixel > dimensions of a C64 sprite and I'm also arguing the C64 isn't quick enough > to do larger sprites in software). The C64 is quite capable of doing high speed sprite-like graphics without using real sprites, or you can use a multiplexer routine, to let the hardware do most of the placement work for you. As explained above, a multiplexer uses a raster trick to make the video chip re-draw it'S sprites at certain points on the screen. I've seen as many as 64 unique sprite images on screen. The only limit is that you can still only have 8 sprites on any horizontal line, without using some other tricks (which tend to eat up processor power). > channels rather than just one. Also has LP/BP filtering. There are Also high pass. filtering. LP and HP filters attenuate at 12 dB/octave. BP is 6dB/octave. > 1 and 55kHz and in stereo at between 1 and 23kHz (4 bit samples). That's C64 mono 44KHz, Stereo about 23-24KHz depending on the routine. 1Mhz processor. C128, mono 88Khz, stereo 44KHz. 2Mhz processor. I've done this one myself. > hardware is obsolete. I am also arguing that there were CPUs available at The hardware will never be completely obsolete, because there will always be a need for very small objects, for example a mouse pointer, various small game graphics, etc. No matter how you look at it, it still takes a bit less processor power to just let the hardware handle the small stuff. Even small graphics take processor time to implement. In the circles of 64 users, every cycle counts, so most of us spend hours looking for ways to optimise the programs we code. As an example, let'S say you have a routine that takes 100 cycles to execute. That means it can only execute about 10,000 times a second (let'S say it'S a sample player). Shave twenty cycles from this time, and your rate increases to 12,500 times a second. that'S a 25% increase in speed, by cutting twenty cycles. > If the 1MHz 6502 were fast enough, the programmers could take advantage of > the "hacked" video modes on the C64 and deliver some higher resolution > graphics in their games. I have to agree here -- PRogrammers do need to look at the accellerators we have, and write a few games that use the various extensions (such as 320x200x136 IFLI) for games. Or perhaps a Doom clone that uses a full 320x200x16 bitmap (as it stands, a 1Mhz machine is good for about 13 FPS at 40x50x16). > I don't know. Perhaps delivering to the lowest common denominator. The I always attributed this to one pure and simple concept -- the graphics are just too slow above 320x200 on most PC's. Too slow for a realtime Doom clone, or anything else requiring a minimum of 15 FPS updates. There'S no such thing as 'lowest common denominator' if you ask me -- I would say at least 90% of PC owners out there use a VGA or SVGA system, more than capable of much higher resolution displays. I figure if you can display a static 640x480x256 bitmap, then your machine had better be fast enough to put a 3D engine into this 640x400 bitmap, and maintain a 15FPS rate. Honest question, are there any games for the PC that handle this type of display? I don't know if there are or not. All of this said, I am one of my estimated 10% who don't have a VGA display, in fact my old 286 (my 'other' computer) is equipped only with CGA. > The processor is wasting time only if it has to wait between frames to > slow the game down. I view software driven features are far more cost > effective than hardware features - and they can improve with time. This is true, but this waste of time (i.e. slowing down the game) can be amortized in a much simpler way -- use smaller changes to your data. I.e. Let'S say you have a PC or other computer that updates a Doomor other 3D engine at 30FPS, and another machine that's twice as fast, that should handle 60FPS. Instead of simple wasting time between every other frame, cut your various 'changes' in half, to make the full frame rate of 60 FPS. In other words, make the graphics run smoother, with finer detail. Increase the display resolution. Use a larger display for the game. Increase the color resolution (use more colors). Add finer detail to objects. Use more realistic plotting for objects such as trees and wall fixtures. Make the sounds clearer, or put them in stereo if they aren't already. Basically a faster machine can still make good use of the same old hardware, you just have to be clever in how you program.. Trying to make a machine cheaper is pointless these days, when PC prices in the $1900+ range for a top of the line system. (ok ok we're talking C64 and Spectrum here, not PC, but you get the idea) > No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on > Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. I agree to a point.. When you think about it though, there really isn't anything in the C64 that'S special compared to other machines with the same capabilities.. The VIC chip is our video 'card' The SID chip is our sound 'card' The CIA chips serve as parallel and serial ports The ACIA chip found in Swiftlink and Turbo232 cartridges is our high speed RS232 port. Like any other machine, there is something somewhere in the machine that sets a hard limit on the resolution and number of colors that can be displayed. The point that I agree with is that with a 20Mhz card like Stephan and I have, you could do much better plotting your own graphics (which really should not be termed as 'sprites'), only because the hardware sets a limit on the size of a single sprite. Of course this can be changed with a simple multiplexer routine, which had little affect on the machine's speed, but increases the number of sprites, without affecting the frame rate, andwithout any flicker (provided the routine is coded properly of course). We really need to get off this 'special hardware' thread, and think in terms of 'extra features' or whatever, since each machine still has some hard limit on what it simply can and can not do, in respect to the screen display. > Not true. The Spectrum was manufactured up to 1990 (?). The size of the The C64 was made up till 1992. > The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen > have a 20MHz C64). When you write software for your C64 do you target the I know of at least five others who also have this device. It is my understanding that at least 500 units have been sold. That may not seem like much, but it says something for the device, considering that it is farily new for the targeted market (less than 6 months old). The 20 Mhz accellerator is a plug-and-play device. You simply check the toggle switches mounted on top of the unit (to make sure the settings are right) and plug it into the back of the machine. Simple as that. If there'S a program that doesn't like the turbo mode, you can either flip the turbo switch to the off position, or issue a simple POKE command. If a program simply will not work at all, simply flip the disable switch and press the reset button. > original 1MHZ C64? The PC software writers don't target the 8086, 286, Depends on the application and the target -- If you are writing a program that simply is too slow to run at 1 Mhz, then set your target for 20Mhz, there'S 500+ of them out there already. If your program runs fairly well at 1Mhz, then set your target for the 1Mhz audience, but keep the support for the 20Mhz users. > money - why bother when the market share is in Pentiums? This is precisely why the lot of us stick with our old machines. Screw having to buy a $1900+ system to run some program that a wise coder could probably make run 100 times faster. Optimise, optimise, optimise! Case in point: GEOS 64 v2.0. In many cases I've seen my own system re-draw it'S screen and otherwise outdo some similar operations on a Windows 95 machine (a 486/33 to be honest). For crying out loud, a 486/33 should be at least a few times faster than a 20Mhz 65816 (the processor used in the 20Mhz C64 accellerator), since it has many more powerful features, a wider address bus, etc. It just all boils down to one simple this: What are you willing to do to make your program/machine run faster/better? _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/-'-'_/ _/ _/-' _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ natedac@dfw.net -- Specializing in Digital Sound on your Commodore Using BitchX for the IRC Rules!! -- Do *YOU* have the best!? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:25 CDT 1997 Article: 67852 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 29 May 1997 07:09:15 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 208 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38241 comp.sys.cbm:67852 comp.emulators.cbm:20437 Nate_DAC wrote in article ... > > Sprite size is still the same, 24x21 pixels. By using simple raster cuts > (sometimes also called Multiplexers) you can stack sprites, to increase > the size, with little loss in speed. > Or Virtual Sprites if you're an Amigan. > > 3. There is a point where the C64's 6510 can be sped up to to emulate the > > C64's display hardware (I have no doubt Stephen's 20MHz 6510 can do it). > > Actually, due to the speed at which a regular C64 accesses it's display > hardware, it'S not possible to outrun the stock screen. That's where those custom hardware limits start becoming *more* relevant I guess. > C64 mono 44KHz, Stereo about 23-24KHz depending on the routine. 1Mhz > processor. > > C128, mono 88Khz, stereo 44KHz. 2Mhz processor. I've done this one > myself. yeah, but how much processor time does this eat up, JOOI. > > hardware is obsolete. I am also arguing that there were CPUs available at > > The hardware will never be completely obsolete, because there will always > be a need for very small objects, for example a mouse pointer, various > small game graphics, etc. No matter how you look at it, it still takes a > bit less processor power to just let the hardware handle the small stuff. > Even small graphics take processor time to implement. It *does* become obsolete in that it costs more to manufacture a custom chip than to use a faster processor capable of doing it in software. > In the circles of 64 users, every cycle counts, so most of us spend hours > looking for ways to optimise the programs we code. That's 'cos you were lumbered with a crap processor. :-) > Or perhaps a Doom clone that uses a full 320x200x16 bitmap (as it stands, > a 1Mhz machine is good for about 13 FPS at 40x50x16). > > > I don't know. Perhaps delivering to the lowest common denominator. The > > I always attributed this to one pure and simple concept -- the graphics > are just too slow above 320x200 on most PC's. Too slow for a realtime > Doom clone, or anything else requiring a minimum of 15 FPS updates. I think it's more to do with how fast the processor could chuff the data into the video memory than anything else. Long live the PCI local bus (erm except of course that USB will make it obsolete ;-) ) > There'S no such thing as 'lowest common denominator' if you ask me -- I > would say at least 90% of PC owners out there use a VGA or SVGA system, > more than capable of much higher resolution displays. As I said, it's down to processor speeds and crappy 640K limits. :-( > I figure if you can display a static 640x480x256 bitmap, then your machine > had better be fast enough to put a 3D engine into this 640x400 bitmap, and > maintain a 15FPS rate. > > Honest question, are there any games for the PC that handle this type of > display? I don't know if there are or not. Well X-wing Vs Tie Fighter rips along at a loverly rate on my P100, on a 16-bit screen display running with Windows 95 in the background. Admittedly it's helped along by my 3D graphics card but it still does it. > All of this said, I am one of my estimated 10% who don't have a VGA > display, in fact my old 286 (my 'other' computer) is equipped only with > CGA. Congratulations, you've discovered the Jurassic PC. > Trying to make a machine cheaper is pointless these days, when PC prices > in the $1900+ range for a top of the line system. > > (ok ok we're talking C64 and Spectrum here, not PC, but you get the idea) It's a different world today though. There'd be very little point building a PC with hardware sprites etc, 'cos you just wouldn't get any kind of standardization. Look at the teething troubles the 3D graphics card market has had. > The VIC chip is our video 'card' > The SID chip is our sound 'card' Except that they're fixed and proprietary. > Like any other machine, there is something somewhere in the machine that > sets a hard limit on the resolution and number of colors that can be > displayed. Yep. > The point that I agree with is that with a 20Mhz card like Stephan and I > have, you could do much better plotting your own graphics (which really > should not be termed as 'sprites'), only because the hardware sets a limit > on the size of a single sprite. I always found the terms S/W sprites and H/W sprites made the distinction perfectly well. > Of course this can be changed with a simple multiplexer routine, which had > little affect on the machine's speed, but increases the number of sprites, > without affecting the frame rate, andwithout any flicker (provided the > routine is coded properly of course). You've still got limitations that don't apply in software though. > We really need to get off this 'special hardware' thread, and think in > terms of 'extra features' or whatever, since each machine still has some > hard limit on what it simply can and can not do, in respect to the screen > display. The thing is though, the majority of the C64/Speccy debate boils down to the question: Is it better to use Hardware or Software? > > Not true. The Spectrum was manufactured up to 1990 (?). The size of the > > The C64 was made up till 1992. Ah, but it was first released in '84, two years *after* the Speccy so they both lasted the same amount of time. > > The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen > > have a 20MHz C64). When you write software for your C64 do you target the > > I know of at least five others who also have this device. Cor blimey, well that *must* mean it's owned by just about everyone. ;-) > The 20 Mhz accellerator is a plug-and-play device. You simply check the > toggle switches mounted on top of the unit (to make sure the settings are > right) and plug it into the back of the machine. Simple as that. Hmm, doesn't exactly sound plug-and-play to me. What if the toggle switches are wrong? Do you then have to toggle them correctly by hand? Thought so. ;-) Try using a *real* plug-and-play PC device or better still an Amiga autoconfig compatible device then you'll really know what it means. Of course, just about every Speccy add on I ever came across could be described as plug and play. :-) > > why bother when the market share is in Pentiums? > > This is precisely why the lot of us stick with our old machines. Screw > having to buy a $1900+ system to run some program that a wise coder could > probably make run 100 times faster. Optimise, optimise, optimise! Yeah, but is the rest of the world supposed to stand still while you count clock cycles? > Case in point: GEOS 64 v2.0. In many cases I've seen my own system > re-draw it'S screen and otherwise outdo some similar operations on a > Windows 95 machine (a 486/33 to be honest). Who in there right mind runs Win 95 on anything less than the Pentium it was really designed for. Just out of interest was GEOS handling a pre-emptive multitasking scheduler, at least a few background applications and writing to at least a 256 colour screen? No, well that's a silly point then isn't it. > For crying out loud, a 486/33 should be at least a few times faster than a > 20Mhz 65816 (the processor used in the 20Mhz C64 accellerator), since it > has many more powerful features, a wider address bus, etc. See above. > It just all boils down to one simple this: > What are you willing to do to make your program/machine run faster/better? You just can't *seriously* write modern applications in assembler, it's a stupid and pointless relic of the old days. No business has time to scan through millions of lines of 80x86 just to see if they can gain a couple of microseconds here and there. Andy From albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Jun 4 16:55:28 CDT 1997 Article: 67921 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!news.pagesat.net!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!albrecht From: "Alvin R. Albrecht" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:04:37 -0600 Organization: Calgary Free-Net Lines: 108 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: albrecht@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38335 comp.sys.cbm:67921 comp.emulators.cbm:20491 On 29 May 1997, Andrew Cadley wrote: > > C64 mono 44KHz, Stereo about 23-24KHz depending on the routine. 1Mhz > > processor. > > C128, mono 88Khz, stereo 44KHz. 2Mhz processor. I've done this one > > myself. > yeah, but how much processor time does this eat up, JOOI. On my ts2068, the maximum rates of 55-60kHz (mono) and 23 kHz (stereo) pretty much eat up the entire CPU. The problem is that the AY hardware is connected in i/o space rather than memory like on the 6502. If the AY chip were connected to the Z80's memory space, these numbers would double to 100-120kHz (mono) and 46kHz (stereo). I am impressed that the 6502 is fast enough to do the speeds mentioned though. Now I'm curious about someone mentioning doing 8 bit samples on the SID. Wasn't the SID a 4 bit amplitude device? > > I always attributed this to one pure and simple concept -- the graphics > > are just too slow above 320x200 on most PC's. Too slow for a realtime > > Doom clone, or anything else requiring a minimum of 15 FPS updates. > I think it's more to do with how fast the processor could chuff the data > into the video memory than anything else. Long live the PCI local bus (erm > except of course that USB will make it obsolete ;-) ) And I find this extremely unlikely as well. I keep reminding you folks that the Spectrum which is 8 bit and clocked at 3.5MHz is drawing at minimum mono sprites on a 256x192 bitmapped display. A 486/66 is at least 80 times faster. > > I figure if you can display a static 640x480x256 bitmap, then your > machine > > had better be fast enough to put a 3D engine into this 640x400 bitmap, > and > > maintain a 15FPS rate. I think they are capable, but the investment isn't being made in the programming end. However, this is another glorious opportunity to make this point again: plop in a faster processor and there you have your 3d engine at speed. > It's a different world today though. There'd be very little point building > a PC with hardware sprites etc, 'cos you just wouldn't get any kind of > standardization. Look at the teething troubles the 3D graphics card market > has had Not only that. Intel comes out with something twice as fast every year. > > The VIC chip is our video 'card' > > The SID chip is our sound 'card' > Except that they're fixed and proprietary. The hardware imposes limits on what the machine can do. > > Like any other machine, there is something somewhere in the machine that > > sets a hard limit on the resolution and number of colors that can be > > displayed. > I always found the terms S/W sprites and H/W sprites made the distinction > perfectly well. I see no distinction other than implementation. If it looks like a sprite, acts like a sprite, smells like a sprite and tastes like a sprite, it's a sprite. > > We really need to get off this 'special hardware' thread, and think in > > terms of 'extra features' or whatever, since each machine still has some > > hard limit on what it simply can and can not do, in respect to the screen > > display. OK extra features. But there not extras on a 1MHz C64 where you don't have a choice. > > > Not true. The Spectrum was manufactured up to 1990 (?). The size of > > The C64 was made up till 1992. > Ah, but it was first released in '84, two years *after* the Speccy so they > both lasted the same amount of time. This is only true in Europe. In North America, the C64 came out in 81 or 82? This was a full two years ahead of the appearance of the US Spectrum and was the main reason Timex decided not to pursue the machine in the US. The C64 was already firmly established and Timex didn't have the balls to take it on. > > What are you willing to do to make your program/machine run > faster/better? > You just can't *seriously* write modern applications in assembler, it's a > stupid and pointless relic of the old days. No business has time to scan > through millions of lines of 80x86 just to see if they can gain a couple of > microseconds here and there. The realities of modern day computing & the market economy. But it wouldn;t hurt to optimize the most frequently run subroutines. Alvin From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:30 CDT 1997 Article: 68069 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 11:41:20 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6cee$55d6fba0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 102 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38571 comp.sys.cbm:68069 comp.emulators.cbm:20649 Alvin R. Albrecht wrote in article ... > > > On 29 May 1997, Andrew Cadley wrote: > > yeah, but how much processor time does this eat up, JOOI. > > On my ts2068, the maximum rates of 55-60kHz (mono) and 23 kHz (stereo) > pretty much eat up the entire CPU. The problem is that the AY hardware is > connected in i/o space rather than memory like on the 6502. If the AY > chip were connected to the Z80's memory space, these numbers would double > to 100-120kHz (mono) and 46kHz (stereo). I am impressed that the 6502 is > fast enough to do the speeds mentioned though. > Hmm, I still think three channel 15Khz sound of the CPC pluses is better. You don't need to use any processor time (except for setting up DMA channels), you can bank switch the samples out of the main memory map and it's suitable for games. I too was impressed by those C64 speeds, although I bet that using practically every cycle. > Now I'm curious about someone mentioning doing 8 bit samples on the SID. > Wasn't the SID a 4 bit amplitude device? > I thought so to. > > > I always attributed this to one pure and simple concept -- the graphics > > > are just too slow above 320x200 on most PC's. Too slow for a realtime > > > Doom clone, or anything else requiring a minimum of 15 FPS updates. > > > I think it's more to do with how fast the processor could chuff the data > > into the video memory than anything else. Long live the PCI local bus (erm > > except of course that USB will make it obsolete ;-) ) > > And I find this extremely unlikely as well. I keep reminding you folks > that the Spectrum which is 8 bit and clocked at 3.5MHz is drawing at > minimum mono sprites on a 256x192 bitmapped display. A 486/66 is at least > 80 times faster. I think this was down to the fact that he was using a 286 or something if I remember the original post correctly. > > > The VIC chip is our video 'card' > > > The SID chip is our sound 'card' > > > Except that they're fixed and proprietary. > > The hardware imposes limits on what the machine can do. > It always does, but proprietary designs cost a lot more to develop that using off the shelf components as found on modern PC's. > > > Like any other machine, there is something somewhere in the machine that > > > sets a hard limit on the resolution and number of colors that can be > > > displayed. > > > I always found the terms S/W sprites and H/W sprites made the distinction > > perfectly well. > > I see no distinction other than implementation. If it looks like a > sprite, acts like a sprite, smells like a sprite and tastes like a > sprite, it's a sprite. Agreed, but I always distinguish when I start speaking in respect o the CPC+ range which were capable of doing both with H/W sprites in special modes that software ones couldn't manage (high resolution 16 colour) > > > What are you willing to do to make your program/machine run > > faster/better? > > > You just can't *seriously* write modern applications in assembler, it's a > > stupid and pointless relic of the old days. No business has time to scan > > through millions of lines of 80x86 just to see if they can gain a couple of > > microseconds here and there. > > The realities of modern day computing & the market economy. But it > wouldn;t hurt to optimize the most frequently run subroutines. > That should be down to compiler writers though, there the only ones who need to get their hands dirty in assembler. Andy From no@junk.mail Wed Jun 4 16:55:34 CDT 1997 Article: 68348 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.he.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.ti.com!news.dseg.ti.com!news From: no@junk.mail (Mike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 2 Jun 1997 12:56:22 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5muftm$g6q@sf18.dseg.ti.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: cns0599352.dseg.ti.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (16bit) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38901 comp.sys.cbm:68348 comp.emulators.cbm:20882 In article >On 29 May 1997, Andrew Cadley wrote: > >Now I'm curious about someone mentioning doing 8 bit samples on the SID. >Wasn't the SID a 4 bit amplitude device? Most (probably all) CD players now days are 1 bit devices. The technique to reproduce 16 bit resolution is known as pulse density modulation. Given it is fast enough, any D/A can reproduce greater resolution than the number of input lines. -- Because the junk mailers of the world think my address is their play thing, my e-mail address will not be revealed. Please respond publicly. ************Thank you junk mailers for ruining the internet************ From oriberge@iol.co.il Wed Jun 4 16:55:37 CDT 1997 Article: 68435 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!207.20.0.4!newsfeed2.aimnet.com!news7.dearborn.agis.net!newspeer.dearborn.agis.net!agis!news.inter.net.il!news From: Ori Berger Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 03:33:04 -0700 Organization: Internet Gold Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3393F2E0.5EB8@iol.co.il> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> <01bc6bff$2880e660$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5muftm$g6q@sf18.dseg.ti.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rg-f43.access.net.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38997 comp.sys.cbm:68435 comp.emulators.cbm:20945 Mike wrote: > Most (probably all) CD players now days are 1 bit devices. The technique to > reproduce 16 bit resolution is known as pulse density modulation. Given it > is fast enough, any D/A can reproduce greater resolution than the number of > input lines. For a 1-bit device to reconstruct 16 bit data using pulse density requires 2^16 * 44.1Khz > 2 Ghz. It seems illogical to me that my 1-bit CD player sitting next to me has a 2Ghz oscilator. Are you sure the '1-bit' really means pulse density reconstruction? From Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP Wed Jun 4 16:55:40 CDT 1997 Article: 68051 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!198.70.175.6!alpha.sky.net!news.vbc.net!vbcnet-west!news.mira.net.au!vic.news.telstra.net!act.news.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!not-for-mail From: Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP (Darren Spiteri) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: Thu, 29 May 97 13:44:21 Organization: Square-eyed keyboard jockeys inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <19970529.117D10.C568@Spam-Free.UUCP> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts5-13.interact.net.au X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38530 comp.sys.cbm:68051 comp.emulators.cbm:20634 Alvin R. Albrecht (albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca) wrote: > If I remember correctly, the 6809 was designed first, then some engineers > responsible for the 6809 left Motorola to form their own company and came > out with the 6502. The fact that they're bus compatible indicates they > certainly have a lot in common. True, it was also the precursor to the 68000 which came out in the *70's* The 6502 was designed by Chuck Peddle and co. who left Motorola because of some political thing. Chuck Peddle also designed the CBM PET. The 6502 was designed with a new technology, but less instructions (RISC :). > Out of curiosity, if someone can tell me, how similar are the instruction > sets between the 6502 & 6809? Is there some binary compatibility? Are > some instructions simply given different mnemonics? (In the Z80's case, > it could run all 8080 software, with mnemonics changing names). Similar mnemonics, as in not as disparate as Z80. The 6809 has a MUL instruction, and you can remap Zero page to any page in memory. Also, more flexible indexed addressing. Totally incompatible. > The C64 is not really upgradeable is it? (How many other than Stepehen Yes it is, 20Mhz off the shelf. -- +-\___ ___ ______ __ __/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\-+ : / __)| _ \||_ _| /__/_/ Spit@interact.net.au (Darren Spiteri) : |:__ \: _:: :: : @# '') "Bunch of savages in this town..." - Dante | `(____/|_|><|_||_|><><\__3- - -* <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>' From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 16:55:43 CDT 1997 Article: 68096 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 16:45:09 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5mn06l$b9f@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mcn62$4nb$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38608 comp.sys.cbm:68096 comp.emulators.cbm:20676 In article , Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > >Absolutely not. I am fully aware what sprites done in hardware are. My I will refrain from comment at this time. :) >I think you've misunderstood what software sprites are. On the Spectrum, I will again refrain. > >No. But I am going to claim that the special hardware is useless on >Stephen's 20MHz C64. He can do better in software. No, I cannot. If you think you can, you are welcome to try. >-Anything with 3d vector graphics are done faster on the Spectrum or not > at all on the C64 (Starglider) Dim4. -S From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:55:55 CDT 1997 Article: 67794 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 04:56:03 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 16 Message-ID: <01bc6a5a$39397900$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38170 comp.sys.cbm:67794 comp.emulators.cbm:20387 Alvin R. Albrecht wrote in article ... > Or perhaps I overestimate the speed of the 6510? A Z80 at 3.5 MHz can put > up sprites adequately enough on a Spectrum resolution screen. On a > Commodore 64's, with higher colour resolution, it'd have to be a bit > faster, but not much. I have to disagree here. The Amstrad CPC has a fairly high resolution colour screen and the Z80 manages to whip sprites round at a remarkable rate, as anyone who's played the beaut' Prehistorik II will surely agree. Andy From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 16:55:58 CDT 1997 Article: 67922 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 02:35:01 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 116 Message-ID: <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38336 comp.sys.cbm:67922 comp.emulators.cbm:20492 In article , Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: >On 25 May 1997, Stephen Judd wrote: > >> My friend, you are sadly, wholly, thoroughly mistaken in your assertions. >> From them I deduce that: > >> a) You have no meaningful experience programming 6510s > >I have meaningful experience programming 6809s. I view the 6809 as a >beefed up 6502(6510). Am I wrong in this assertion? Yup. >> b) You have no meaningful experience programming C-64s. > >You are correct. It was a statement of the obvious, known to all. >> I, on the other hand, have no meaningful experiences programming Z80's >> and Spectrums; the primary difference here is that I will make no >> claims concerning the capabilities of the Spectrum. > >Why not? If you make a mistake, someone will correct you. I expect that >when I make a "thoroughly mistaken" assertion that I will be corrected. I have two reasons: one of them is personal, the other is pragmatic. The personal reason is that among my many interests is a concept known as "reality", or, if you like, "truth". Reality has several interesting properties. One of the most important is that it doesn't care about opinions -- it simply exists. Since I like to maintain some sort of contact with reality, I try to have my opinions reflect it, or those parts of it with which I am familiar. The pragmatic reason deals with the medium we are presently using. One thing I don't think you've grasped is just who you are talking to. I of course do not mean myself, but rather the thousands of people who are reading these posts. And I would rather present myself to those thousands of people as a rational, well-reasoned human being instead of a soporific and sophistic ass. Anyways, what you have told me (and everyone else) so far, near as I can reckon, is that you possess: 1. No meaningful experience programming a 64. 2. No meaningful experience using a 64. 3. No more than a passing familiarity with the machine, its capabilities, and its software. >> In fact, you are free to increase the processor speed by a factor of twenty. >> If you think you can emulate sprites, well, I think you are quite wrong, >> and I'd like to see you try. > >And yet the humble Spectrum running a 3.5MHz Z80 can smoothly animate >larger and more sprites than the C64 and its special hardware. Since you seem to be an expert in this area, perhaps you should post some demonstration code. Since you don't know what sprites are on a 64, here are some issues for you to think about as you code up these smoothly animated sprites: How are you going to move the sprite? Do a block memory move? Don't forget to update the background to the value underneath, so you'll probably have to store it somewhere. When you draw the sprite, how are you going to handle the sprite to background priorities? How about when two sprites overlap, which will be displayed? Don't forget to pass through any graphics underneath if the sprite has a hole in it. And don't forget that the sprites can have different colors. Finally, don't forget to handle collisions. You need to detect if a sprite -- an arbitrarily shaped object, you know -- collides with the background, and/or if it collides with another sprite. A collision of course occurs when a colored (i.e. non-background) pixel in the sprite overlaps another colored pixel. As I said, you are free to take a 20Mhz processor to do this if you want. On the 64, this amounts to storing or reading a value from memory -- four cycles. >If the 20MHz C64 were available ten years ago, and you were making games >using the built in sprite hardware, your competition would bury you >because their software sprites would put your games to shame. Yes, the The expert speaks. One thing you guys seem completely unable to grasp is that a chip like VIC (which provides more than sprites, for instance text and bitmap modes, redefinable characters, video interrupts, and more) simply adds tools to your toolbox. In the case of VIC, they are very powerful tools indeed. What this means is that a programmer now has much more flexibility in deciding how to accomplish a given task. When the processor is upgraded, it means a programmer has just that many more tools. The amazing thing is that you haven't realized that your computer already has some custom chips in it -- the video display chip, for one. On an Atari 2600, for instance, the video display is handled by the processor. All game-related computations are done in the video blanking interval. By your so-called reasoning, a computer would be much better off to let the processor take care of updating the video display, instead of being "limited" by this custom chip. And why stop there? The first computer with a built-in instruction set was called MANIAC, built in the mid-50's (by my good friend Nick Metropolis, no less). Up to that time, it was up to the operator to even define the instructions. >The C64 survived in the low end 8bit market simply because the industry >moved to 16bits and a higher cost bracket. Sure. -S From starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:56:01 CDT 1997 Article: 67956 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!194.159.255.23!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:15:04 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 83 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38403 comp.sys.cbm:67956 comp.emulators.cbm:20537 In article <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd writes > >Since you seem to be an expert in this area, perhaps you should post >some demonstration code. Since you don't know what sprites are on >a 64, here are some issues for you to think about as you code up >these smoothly animated sprites: > > How are you going to move the sprite? Do a block memory move? >Don't forget to update the background to the value underneath, so you'll >probably have to store it somewhere. When you draw the sprite, how are >you going to handle the sprite to background priorities? How about when >two sprites overlap, which will be displayed? > Don't forget to pass through any graphics underneath if the >sprite has a hole in it. And don't forget that the sprites can have >different colors. > Finally, don't forget to handle collisions. You need to detect >if a sprite -- an arbitrarily shaped object, you know -- collides with >the background, and/or if it collides with another sprite. A collision >of course occurs when a colored (i.e. non-background) pixel in the sprite >overlaps another colored pixel. > As I said, you are free to take a 20Mhz processor to do this >if you want. > HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! The other 3% were vector games.. show me a commodore vector game that outruns a spectrum equivalent. I'll give you a year to look! The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, enabling you to enter many commands at once. > On the 64, this amounts to storing or reading a value from >memory -- four cycles. > >>If the 20MHz C64 were available ten years ago, and you were making games >>using the built in sprite hardware, your competition would bury you >>because their software sprites would put your games to shame. Yes, the > >The expert speaks. > Then why didn't the Commodore bury the competition? Why was the spectrum the biggest selling 8 bit computer of all time (the C64 came close, but not that close!) >One thing you guys seem completely unable to grasp is that a chip like >VIC (which provides more than sprites, for instance text and bitmap >modes, redefinable characters, video interrupts, and more) simply adds >tools to your toolbox. In the case of VIC, they are very powerful tools >indeed. What this means is that a programmer now has much more flexibility >in deciding how to accomplish a given task. When the processor is >upgraded, it means a programmer has just that many more tools. > >The amazing thing is that you haven't realized that your computer already >has some custom chips in it -- the video display chip, for one. On an >Atari 2600, for instance, the video display is handled by the processor. >All game-related computations are done in the video blanking interval. >By your so-called reasoning, a computer would be much better off to let >the processor take care of updating the video display, instead of being >"limited" by this custom chip. > >And why stop there? The first computer with a built-in instruction set >was called MANIAC, built in the mid-50's (by my good friend Nick >Metropolis, no less). Up to that time, it was up to the operator to >even define the instructions. > >>The C64 survived in the low end 8bit market simply because the industry >>moved to 16bits and a higher cost bracket. > >Sure. > > -S > -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * NVG UPDATES:nvg@thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ From macbeth@tbaytel.net Wed Jun 4 16:56:04 CDT 1997 Article: 68086 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.bellglobal.com!bellglobal.com!not-for-mail From: Robin Harbron Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:07:21 -0400 Organization: Arkanix Labs Lines: 31 Message-ID: <338EED29.1E21@tbaytel.net> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: macbeth@tbaytel.net NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.47.150.26 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38599 comp.sys.cbm:68086 comp.emulators.cbm:20665 The Starglider wrote: > In article <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes > > As I said, you are free to take a 20Mhz processor to do this > >if you want. > > > HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? > Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! > Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! He wasn't babbling... Stephen was asking a comprehensive question, which you all but ignored, because you couldn't answer it. His point is that you don't understand how much work the VIC does, leaving the processor free to do so much more. > The other 3% were vector games.. show me a commodore vector game that > outruns a spectrum equivalent. I'll give you a year to look! I haven't seen any spectrum vector games, so I won't comment, as I'm not qualified. (Perhaps you should take a hint from my actions) > The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you > can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, > enabling you to enter many commands at once. Try every single Infocom game ever made. Robin Harbron (Macbeth/PSW) macbeth@tbaytel.net From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 16:56:06 CDT 1997 Article: 68097 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 16:54:53 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5mn0ot$bii@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38609 comp.sys.cbm:68097 comp.emulators.cbm:20677 In article , The Starglider wrote: >In article <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes >> >> How are you going to move the sprite? Do a block memory move? [Don't forget that sprites are multiple columns wide, and of course can be displayed on any pixel coordinate, i.e. sprite column bytes can straddle screen column bytes. Shift the sprite data then?] >>Don't forget to update the background to the value underneath, so you'll >>probably have to store it somewhere. When you draw the sprite, how are >>you going to handle the sprite to background priorities? How about when >>two sprites overlap, which will be displayed? >> Don't forget to pass through any graphics underneath if the >>sprite has a hole in it. And don't forget that the sprites can have >>different colors. >> Finally, don't forget to handle collisions. You need to detect >>if a sprite -- an arbitrarily shaped object, you know -- collides with >>the background, and/or if it collides with another sprite. A collision >>of course occurs when a colored (i.e. non-background) pixel in the sprite >>overlaps another colored pixel. [And you need to indicate which sprite collided with which others, or the background] >> As I said, you are free to take a 20Mhz processor to do this >>if you want. >> >HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? >Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! >Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! As to you, I think you would do better to engage in some thoughtful research and analysis, instead of displaying the textual equivalent of chronic, debilitating flatulence. evetS- From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:56:08 CDT 1997 Article: 68105 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-xfer.cybernet.dk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 17:55:19 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 48 Message-ID: <01bc6d22$93b29040$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mn0ot$bii@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38621 comp.sys.cbm:68105 comp.emulators.cbm:20687 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mn0ot$bii@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article , > The Starglider wrote: > >In article <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > > writes > >> > >> How are you going to move the sprite? Do a block memory move? > > [Don't forget that sprites are multiple columns wide, and of course can > be displayed on any pixel coordinate, i.e. sprite column bytes can > straddle screen column bytes. Shift the sprite data then?] What only to the nearest pixel, on my CPC+ I can move sprites by quarter pixels. > [And you need to indicate which sprite collided with which others, or > the background] > Well tht depends entirely what you need them for. In software it's possible to have things like multicolour backgrounds and sprites and such like and only detect collisions between certain areas. H/W sprites on the 64 aren't as flexible is either collided or it hasn't. > >> As I said, you are free to take a 20Mhz processor to do this > >>if you want. > >> > >HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? > >Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! > >Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! > > As to you, I think you would do better to engage in some thoughtful > research and analysis, instead of displaying the textual equivalent > of chronic, debilitating flatulence. Of course, you're totally right. All these years I've been playing spectrum games and I never even realized that the background was being deleted or that there was no collision detection anywhere. How could I possibly be *that* stupid. Andy From b150542@cs.tut.fi Wed Jun 4 16:56:10 CDT 1997 Article: 68322 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!194.100.0.3!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!news.funet.fi!news.cs.tut.fi!kulorastas!b150542 From: b150542@cs.tut.fi (Tatu Blomberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 30 May 1997 17:24:28 GMT Organization: Tampere University of Technology (CS) Lines: 50 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mn2gc$7u3@peippo.cs.tut.fi> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: kulorastas.cs.tut.fi NNTP-Posting-User: b150542 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38855 comp.sys.cbm:68322 comp.emulators.cbm:20871 The Starglider (starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk) wrote: : writes 8< facts about sprites on c64 --- removed --- >8 : > : HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? : Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! : Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! Hmmm... I remember that most Spectrum games I saw in the past had some colorbugs with softsprites. Also, I think that it was a common trend to make "sprites" jerk and move them 8 pixels at once. That was some what an annoying with stupidly ignoring the background of the sprite. Well, maybe I will download some games for speccy and test these emulators I got sometime ago. : The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you : can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, : enabling you to enter many commands at once. Hahah... I bet there were no near as good interactive fiction games (adventures, if you prefer so) on spectrum as there were on C64. Without a doubt, the best ones were from Infocom. Atleast their parser was really advanced and was able to parse out very complex sentences. In fact, their games were written in Z-machine code, which was a language especially invented for making these games. Because that code is interpreted, their games were very portable... oddly enough, I just checked out Infocom FactSheet and didn't find any information about releasing games for Spectrum. Maybe diskdrives just weren't enough popular on speccy? Drive was mandatory because games used drive as virtual memory (not writable though). : Then why didn't the Commodore bury the competition? Why was the spectrum : the biggest selling 8 bit computer of all time (the C64 came close, but : not that close!) Now you must be talking about the success in England (and in other very poor countries like ex-easternblock). Atleast here in Finland and on other scandinavian countries too, Spectrum was never such a hit. I guess that scandinavians looked up for quality instead of cheapo prize. Anyway, it always amazed me that in England so called "budget" games did sell very well. No matter how rubbish they were. Tatu --- Tatu Blomberg E-Mail: mrsex@cc.tut.fi Mr.Sex/Byterapers Inc. http://www.iwn.fi/byterapers/ From ncc386@datasync.com Wed Jun 4 16:56:12 CDT 1997 Article: 68318 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.datasync.com!usenet From: "Robert T. Cobb" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 2 Jun 1997 09:07:50 GMT Organization: Datasync Internet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <01bc6f33$5752f140$374a84d0@Pncc386> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mn2gc$7u3@peippo.cs.tut.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: osp22.datasync.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38853 comp.sys.cbm:68318 comp.emulators.cbm:20864 Tatu Blomberg wrote in article <5mn2gc$7u3@peippo.cs.tut.fi>... > : The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you > : can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, > : enabling you to enter many commands at once. Well, actually try The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Stationfall... The sentence engine was fairly complex. Robert T. Cobb From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 16:56:16 CDT 1997 Article: 68391 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:14:39 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <339303d2.586672@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mn2gc$7u3@peippo.cs.tut.fi> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38955 comp.sys.cbm:68391 comp.emulators.cbm:20913 On 30 May 1997 17:24:28 GMT, b150542@cs.tut.fi (Tatu Blomberg) wrote: >Well, maybe I will download some games for speccy and test these emulators >I got sometime ago. Try Zynaps - it gets round these problems by careful colour use. Or Lightforce, which does the 8 pixel trick for the sprites but scrolls the background in single pixels. Both top games as well! >Now you must be talking about the success in England (and in other very >poor countries like ex-easternblock). Atleast here in Finland England is poor compared to... Finland? Well, I needed a laugh today. > and on >other scandinavian countries too, Spectrum was never such a hit. I guess >that scandinavians looked up for quality instead of cheapo prize. Where is NVG located then, hmmm? > Anyway, >it always amazed me that in England so called "budget" games did sell very >well. Yes, we were so silly, buying things that are good value instead of buying overpriced crap. Silly us. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 16:58:56 CDT 1997 Article: 68498 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.theriver.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:05:36 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 21 Message-ID: <339416A0.4192@adm.hioslo.no> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mn2gc$7u3@peippo.cs.tut.fi> <339303d2.586672@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39035 comp.sys.cbm:68498 comp.emulators.cbm:20981 Damien Burke wrote: > >Now you must be talking about the success in England (and in other very > >poor countries like ex-easternblock). Atleast here in Finland > > England is poor compared to... Finland? Well, I needed a laugh > today. Isn't it? > > and on > >other scandinavian countries too, Spectrum was never such a hit. I guess > >that scandinavians looked up for quality instead of cheapo prize. > > Where is NVG located then, hmmm? In Norway - Scandinavia. The C64 was a lot more popular in Norway than the Spectrum was. --- Ivar Fiske From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:01 CDT 1997 Article: 68149 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 97 23:30:14 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 21 Message-ID: <874.7089T1410T742@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38684 comp.sys.cbm:68149 comp.emulators.cbm:20731 On 30-May-97 The Starglider wrote: >The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you >can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, >enabling you to enter many commands at once. Hmmm ? Are you claiming Speccy adventures are technically better ? What about the Infocom titles ? The Level 9 ones ? Magnetic Scrolls ? If these are not good enough please quote me some Spectrum titles that are technically better. Sure, there are *more* Spectrum adventures, and some are excellently written - which is in fact the main reason I use Speccy emulators - but there no reason to believe this is because the Spectrum is superior as a host platform for this kind of game. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 16:59:05 CDT 1997 Article: 68131 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 20:08:20 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5mnc3k$766$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38645 comp.sys.cbm:68131 comp.emulators.cbm:20713 In The Starglider writes: >HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME? What the hell are you babbling on about? >Have you looked at a spectrum? Of course it can doo all that! Easily! >Just look at.. well... about 95% of all the games that came out for it! HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME (yourself)? And how much processor time is being wasted on this? (Resurrection of hardware assistance vs. CPU doing all the work argument) And btw, no one is arguing that the Spectrum can do that. Who ever said the Spectrum isn't sprite capable? Isn't that what this whole stinking thread has been yelling back and forth for the past week? >The other 2% were adventures. Show me a Commodore adventure where you >can type commands in real enlish (and not inglish) and whole paragraphs, >enabling you to enter many commands at once. Okay. I give you all the Infocom games. Satisfied? I've even written NL parsers myself (and I know how they work, because my degree is in Linguistics). Yes, I know right here you will put in a jab saying "if your degree is in ling, you don't know what you're talking about", so I beat you to it. >Then why didn't the Commodore bury the competition? Why was the spectrum >the biggest selling 8 bit computer of all time (the C64 came close, but >not that close!) Where, in Iceland? Get real. The Spectrum crowd seems to forget that Timex's blunder in the U.S. makes the 64 the leader. Sorry. What amazes me about your post is that you're regurgitating issues that have been steamrolled over and over umpteen million times in this discussion. Do you have anything original to say? Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu www.computerworkshops.home.ml.org From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:08 CDT 1997 Article: 68137 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 21:06:50 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d3d$53cce1e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mnc3k$766$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 30 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38661 comp.sys.cbm:68137 comp.emulators.cbm:20720 Po-Ching Lives! wrote in article <5mnc3k$766$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>... > In The Starglider writes: > HELLO? IS THERE ANYONE HOME (yourself)? And how much processor time > is being wasted on this? (Resurrection of hardware assistance vs. > CPU doing all the work argument) And btw, no one is arguing that the > Spectrum can do that. Who ever said the Spectrum isn't sprite > capable? Isn't that what this whole stinking thread has been yelling > back and forth for the past week? Processor time isn't being wasted unless your waiting for a frame flyback (in which case it's safe to assume you probably didn't need the time) or you have to start dropping frames to keep things smooth, which suggests a very complex system like Freescape. Speccy games bunged sprites all over the place and ran at a lovely speed. It was the original poster who claimed it couldn't be done. > What amazes me about your post is that you're regurgitating issues > that have been steamrolled over and over umpteen million times in > this discussion. Do you have anything original to say? Nothing would need regurgitating if C64 owners would start admitting to some rather obvious facts. Andy From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 16:59:12 CDT 1997 Article: 68116 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:57:31 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <338f189e.4590414@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mlecl$ki4@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 35 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38635 comp.sys.cbm:68116 comp.emulators.cbm:20699 On 30 May 1997 02:35:01 GMT, judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: >a 64, here are some issues for you to think about as you code up >these smoothly animated sprites: > [snip issues involved with sprites] > > On the 64, this amounts to storing or reading a value from >memory -- four cycles. I think perhaps the point is not being clearly made here. What the Speccy side is saying here is that the Speccy does not lose out by not having this in hardware - because the CPU is effectively as fast (possibly faster) than the VIC + 64 CPU in combination. >One thing you guys seem completely unable to grasp is that a chip like >VIC (which provides more than sprites, for instance text and bitmap >modes, redefinable characters, video interrupts, and more) simply adds >tools to your toolbox. In the case of VIC, they are very powerful tools >indeed. What this means is that a programmer now has much more flexibility >in deciding how to accomplish a given task. But your tools have limitations - so is it not better to have a more powerful CPU to fall back on? >The amazing thing is that you haven't realized that your computer already >has some custom chips in it -- the video display chip, for one. What, my Speccy? No dedicated video display chip at all. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:22 CDT 1997 Article: 67793 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 04:50:23 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a59$6e5921e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6969$c7c091a0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 16 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38169 comp.sys.cbm:67793 comp.emulators.cbm:20386 Jason Compton wrote in article <5maqam$6i@flood.xnet.com>... > Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: > : Yeah, and how many 2D games have you seen on the Playstation. Not a lot I > : can tell you, simply because the hardware is much more suited to 3D. > > No, because Sony doesn't like to allow 2D games to be released on the > Playstation. That's what delayed the release of Worms. Of course not, *they* don't want anyone to know that it's crap at them now do they. Andy From briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:25 CDT 1997 Article: 68037 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!uchinews!news.spss.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!bgserv.demon.co.uk!briang From: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk (Brian Gaff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 97 05:31:04 GMT Organization: bgserv Message-ID: <864797464snz@bgserv.demon.co.uk> References: <01bc6a59$6e5921e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: bgserv.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.29 Lines: 9 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38491 comp.sys.cbm:68037 comp.emulators.cbm:20620 I think this thread needs its own group... Brian -- briang@bgserv.demon.co.uk Brian Gaff AKA B G Services - Still supporting Z80 The Spectrum Emulator From sta@ludens.elte.hu Wed Jun 4 16:59:28 CDT 1997 Article: 67959 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-was.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!ludens.elte.hu!sta From: sta@ludens.elte.hu Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Message-ID: <1997May30.101516.40838@ludens> Date: 30 May 97 10:15:16 +0100 References: <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> Organization: Eotvos University, Budapest, Hungary Lines: 8 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.cbm:67959 comp.emulators.cbm:20541 I've got just one question about this flood? Why are Spectrum users flooding a _Commodore_ newsgroup with comments? I always owned a C64 but don't want to say anything good or bad about either computer and I'm ABSOLUTELY not interested in your flame war! Anyone else with the same opinion? Joe Forster/STA sta@ludens.elte.hu From no@junk.mail Wed Jun 4 16:59:31 CDT 1997 Article: 68074 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!news.dseg.ti.com!news From: no@junk.mail (Mike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 12:47:40 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5mmi9c$7p8@sf18.dseg.ti.com> References: <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <1997May30.101516.40838@ludens> NNTP-Posting-Host: cns0599352.dseg.ti.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (16bit) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.cbm:68074 comp.emulators.cbm:20650 In article <1997May30.101516.40838@ludens>, sta@ludens.elte.hu says... > >I've got just one question about this flood? Why are Spectrum users >flooding a _Commodore_ newsgroup with comments? I always owned a C64 >but don't want to say anything good or bad about either computer and >I'm ABSOLUTELY not interested in your flame war! Anyone else with the >same opinion? Clap clap clap clap! -- Because the junk mailers of the world think my address is their play thing, my e-mail address will not be revealed. Please respond publicly. ************Thank you junk mailers for ruining the internet************ From WayJD@SWBell.Net Wed Jun 4 16:59:33 CDT 1997 Article: 68222 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news7.digex.net!news1.rcsntx.swbell.net!usenet From: "JD Way" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:36:24 -0500 Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5mqjmm$2u0@news1.rcsntx.swbell.net> References: <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma843$p2l@news.acns.nwu.edu> <1997May30.101516.40838@ludens> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-207-193-32-9.okcyok.swbell.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.cbm:68222 comp.emulators.cbm:20792 Fer a minute there I thought I was in the COMP.EMULATORS.SPECCY group!! sta@ludens.elte.hu wrote in article <1997May30.101516.40838@ludens>... >I've got just one question about this flood? Why are Spectrum users >flooding a _Commodore_ newsgroup with comments? I always owned a C64 >but don't want to say anything good or bad about either computer and >I'm ABSOLUTELY not interested in your flame war! Anyone else with the >same opinion? > >Joe Forster/STA >sta@ludens.elte.hu > From Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP Wed Jun 4 16:59:36 CDT 1997 Article: 68006 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.telstra.net!act.news.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!not-for-mail From: Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: Tue, 27 May 97 23:37:53 Organization: Square-eyed keyboard jockeys inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <19970527.10F9A8.1569B@Spam-Free.UUCP> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma813$6bo$1@fenun.icemark.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts4-10.interact.net.au X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38415 comp.sys.cbm:68006 comp.emulators.cbm:20589 This argument is MOOT! The fact is, both were excellent computers with cool games and real personalities. Even the CPC was a cool beast. Cool things about... Spectrum (original 48k): and C64: Tiny :) Nice keyboard. Fast, reliable tape. Disk drive standardized. Mono GFX are hip. Crappy colour bitmaps are hip. Beeps are hip. Awesome sounds. Cheap. Well built. Sweet BASIC. Sweet to code on. Lotsa games... Lotsa games... Just acknowledge that both are milestones in computer history, and they are both cool. Only arsehole Wintel users with a fistful of benchmarks could care otherwise, suckers... -- +-\___ ___ ______ __ __/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\-+ : / __)| _ \||_ _| /__/_/ Spit@interact.net.au (Darren Spiteri) : |:__ \: _:: :: : @# '') "Bunch of savages in this town..." | `(____/|_|><|_||_|><><\__3- - -* <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>' From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 16:59:38 CDT 1997 Article: 68016 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:26:15 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <338c2474.8023454@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma813$6bo$1@fenun.icemark.ch> <19970527.10F9A8.1569B@Spam-Free.UUCP> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38442 comp.sys.cbm:68016 comp.emulators.cbm:20599 On Tue, 27 May 97 23:37:53, Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP wrote: >Just acknowledge that both are milestones in computer history, and they are >both cool. Only arsehole Wintel users with a fistful of benchmarks could >care otherwise, suckers... You are, my man, a wise and great person. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 16:59:40 CDT 1997 Article: 68046 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 23:22:52 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5mieoc$b52$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <01bc682f$c300ea60$ae4ea4c2@aps-tornado-4> <5ma813$6bo$1@fenun.icemark.ch> <19970527.10F9A8.1569B@Spam-Free.UUCP> <338c2474.8023454@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38525 comp.sys.cbm:68046 comp.emulators.cbm:20629 On Tue, 27 May 97 23:37:53, Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP wrote: >Just acknowledge that both are milestones in computer history, and they are >both cool. Only arsehole Wintel users with a fistful of benchmarks could >care otherwise, suckers... Boo, trying to take away our nice little flame war! ;-) Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:43 CDT 1997 Article: 67709 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:44:05 GMT Message-ID: <338d5b11.6430666@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38071 comp.sys.cbm:67709 comp.emulators.cbm:20294 c64fan@commodore.rulez.the.world (A Commodore 64 fan) wrote: >Most games that are incredible in the C64, are very bad done in the >Spectrum, look at Green Beret for example. hahahahahaha...the spectrum version of GB was great as the actual arcade code shows (via MAME)... Rob. From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:45 CDT 1997 Article: 67710 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:47:14 GMT Message-ID: <338e5bdc.6633728@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <01bc6919$6a0d80e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <01bc6927$e8eb3160$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38072 comp.sys.cbm:67710 comp.emulators.cbm:20295 The Starglider wrote: >That's not true, actually, there is C64S, which is terrible >:-) Well there is Win64...which would be nice if the author ever gets rounds to make it more compatible. Rob. From nick@express.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 16:59:48 CDT 1997 Article: 68012 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!express.demon.co.uk!express.demon.co.uk!nick From: Nick Honeywell Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:11:20 +0100 Organization: Nick Honeywell Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <01bc6919$6a0d80e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: express.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: express.demon.co.uk [158.152.36.22] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.00 <5KjUHbL+W6lsKPy8d936v2X9sp> Lines: 13 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38436 comp.sys.cbm:68012 comp.emulators.cbm:20595 In article <01bc6919$6a0d80e0$04b8de8b@w9622136>, Andrew Cadley writes >And the Amstrad CPC could do a much better job of colour graphics than >either of the two machines, but yet it still suffered from an amazing >number of *speccy* ports. True, but my favourite Amstrad CPC games were written for the Amstrad first, then suffered *amazingly* crap ports to the Spectrum. It still amazes me how Crash could give the Speccy version of 'Strangeloop' such a high rating ... -- Nick Honeywell From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 16:59:55 CDT 1997 Article: 68296 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 19:26:51 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <3391c476.5267679@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <01bc6919$6a0d80e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5ma88i$p4c@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6e5c$ae6f2f20$7bc348a6@default> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 18 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38837 comp.sys.cbm:68296 comp.emulators.cbm:20845 On 1 Jun 1997 07:24:06 GMT, "§ÝñTaX èRrðR" wrote: >When I was in the Commodore Hacking part of www.jbrain.com I found this 58 >Block program. It is attached to the message. It has 3D triangle things. >It is cool. And you are an idiot, unless you can point out where the word 'binaries' appears in either: comp.sys.sinclair comp.sys.cbm or comp.emulators.cbm -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:00:49 CDT 1997 Article: 67750 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:01:38 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <3389eb72.453875@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <338f5c4e.6747867@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38116 comp.sys.cbm:67750 comp.emulators.cbm:20342 On Mon, 26 May 1997 09:49:17 GMT, kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) wrote: >Are you sure about this?, the MSX version looks terrible when run >under fMSX... Been a while since I played it, and never tried it on fMSX but I was pretty sure it looked good. Static at least - when it moves people tend to look askance at it. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:00:52 CDT 1997 Article: 67712 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:53:42 GMT Message-ID: <33905d61.7022838@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38074 comp.sys.cbm:67712 comp.emulators.cbm:20297 judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: >You can argue with success, but not in the case of the 64. Without >much marketing, and without any substantial improvements in the basic >design, it was produced for over a decade and sold an enormous number >of units -- the #1 selling computer of all time. And it is still not >only used but actively developed for, both in hardware and software. Of course you forget to mention the continued use (and programs still being written) in the former eastern block countries. Rob. From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:00:55 CDT 1997 Article: 67744 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:01:42 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 60 Message-ID: <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38102 comp.sys.cbm:67744 comp.emulators.cbm:20333 On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: >While it's a foreign concept (literally) to many Europeans, a disk >drive extends that much further: once freed of the shackles of a >tape drive, you can store things on disk and retrieve them when >needed -- a basic form of random access virtual memory (and one of the many >reasons those of us in the USA are so shocked to learn that so many >Europeans used tape drives, and are so disappointed when we see the tape >versions of our favorite games). Generally true, but the reason for lack of Disk Drive support in Europe was the greed of Commodore. In their effort to make their price more attractive they cut out _all_ storage devices from the C64 as originally distributed. That's right, when my parents splashed out what was a considerable amount of money at the time (early 1984), the C64 came without _any_ storage device, or joystick, or any software at all. I had to save up my pocket money for ages before I could buy a tape drive. I remember writing a cricket game in BASIC - inspired by seeing Test Match on the Speccy - and leaving the computer on at all times because I had no way of saving my work. After the first power cut I always copied the code into a notebook at the end of the day in case of accidents. A disk drive was out of the question, since Commodore were charging more for that than the C64 itself. Disk drives. Pah, you were lucky... >Almost any program developed after 1985 in the US used this to great >advantage. In some cases, yes. However, it is my view that the restricted resources often resulted in higher quality, because the programmers were forced to push the boundaries of their machine rather than just use up a little more disk space. Some of the best games I've ever played came on single load tapes. >>it's benefit, but they pale in comparison to the fact that the spectrum >>was a more flexible, easier machine, and THAT'S why they sold more in >>the UK. >And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. That's a very brave >logic you posess. >You can argue with success, but not in the case of the 64. Without >much marketing, and without any substantial improvements in the basic >design, it was produced for over a decade and sold an enormous number >of units -- the #1 selling computer of all time. And it is still not >only used but actively developed for, both in hardware and software. >If you really don't understand the reasons, then I suggest that you >do a little research on the subject: visit some web sites, get ahold >of a 64, use a variety of programs on it, and try programming it. As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore inflicted on us, you know. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:00:58 CDT 1997 Article: 67810 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 06:45:40 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 14 Message-ID: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38190 comp.sys.cbm:67810 comp.emulators.cbm:20398 Bill Hoggett wrote in article <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... > On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: > As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore > inflicted on us, you know. > Apparently, Mulder and Scully investigate how they managed to claim it was a BASIC interpreter in the next series of the X files. :-) Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:08 CDT 1997 Article: 67835 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 09:29:24 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 22 Message-ID: <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38222 comp.sys.cbm:67835 comp.emulators.cbm:20424 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... >> On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: >> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >> inflicted on us, you know. >> >Apparently, Mulder and Scully investigate how they managed to claim it was >a BASIC interpreter in the next series of the X files. :-) :-) Yeah, if C64 BASIC wasn't an alien concept, I don't what was. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From holz4061@gmi.edu Wed Jun 4 17:01:11 CDT 1997 Article: 68030 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!panix!news.eecs.umich.edu!holz4061 From: holz4061@gmi.edu (White Flame) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 28 May 1997 01:58:09 GMT Organization: GMI Engin. & Mgt. Institute, Flint, MI Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5mg3fh$3lq$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.138.137.2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38482 comp.sys.cbm:68030 comp.emulators.cbm:20613 : On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: : >Bill Hoggett wrote in article : ><2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... : >> On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: : >> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore : >> inflicted on us, you know. : >> : >Apparently, Mulder and Scully investigate how they managed to claim it was : >a BASIC interpreter in the next series of the X files. :-) well, Microsoft did write the BASIC for Commodores... -------- White Flame (aka David Holz) Guitar-playing, C=64-using, GMI-attending, holz4061@nova.gmi.edu Dream Theater-listening weird kind o' guy. "And now I will show you the Most Excellent way..." 1 Corinthians 13 "Blood, heal me. Fear, change me. Belief will always save me. Blood, staring. Fear, swearing. Conviction made aware..." - Dream Theater From felinoid@ccnet.com Wed Jun 4 17:01:14 CDT 1997 Article: 68035 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!usc!ccnet.com!ccnet.com!not-for-mail From: felinoid@ccnet.com (Jeffery C McLean) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 21:05:31 -0700 Organization: CCnet Communications (510-988-7140 guest) Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5mgaub$859$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> <5mg3fh$3lq$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccnet3.ccnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38489 comp.sys.cbm:68035 comp.emulators.cbm:20618 : : >> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore : : >> inflicted on us, you know. By the time Commodore made the PET installing basic on a home computer was pritty much standard operating proceure... the alternitives were even worse and given the power not very practical anyway... Pascal and C were not avalable quite yet... White Flame (holz4061@gmi.edu) wrote: : well, Microsoft did write the BASIC for Commodores... No... Commodore wrote it's own basic from the PET to the C64 the Microsoft copyright only shows up on the C128 and it shows up along side Commodores... Even then Microsoft was only improving commodores existing Basic they didn't write a totaly new one... And Commodore had to fix bugs Microsoft left behind (Had to use the older commodore commands to avoid gitches in the basic)... commodore fixed the bugs later... -- Vote for Jeffery C McLean for City Council in the city of Concord California Internet:felinoid@ccnet.com FidoNet:5249@1:125/233 http://www.ccnet.com/~felinoid From commodoreboy@cybermail.net Wed Jun 4 17:01:17 CDT 1997 Article: 68286 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!prodigy.com!not-for-mail From: "§ÝñTaX èRrðR" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 1 Jun 1997 09:32:41 GMT Organization: Cardogian Software Lines: 13 Message-ID: <01bc6e6e$aa65fdc0$7bc348a6@default> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> <5mg3fh$3lq$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip166-72-195-123.fl.us.ibm.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38827 comp.sys.cbm:68286 comp.emulators.cbm:20836 > well, Microsoft did write the BASIC for Commodores... > Alot of Commodore users i know hate Microsoft. How can they? If it wasn't for Microsoft, their wouldn't be a BASIC V2 on the Great Commodore 64. -- LONG LIVE THE COMMODORE 64!! http://www.cybermail.net/~cgi +====================================================================+ + I am Homer of Borg.... prepare to be assim... oooo... Donuts... + +====================================================================+ From tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:19 CDT 1997 Article: 68307 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Jason Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: Sun, 1 Jun 97 22:51:57 GMT Organization: Cosine Systems Message-ID: <9706012251.AA00fuq@cosine.demon.co.uk> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> <5mg3fh$3lq$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> <01bc6e6e$aa65fdc0$7bc348a6@default> X-Mail2News-User: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-1.mail.demon.net!gate.demon.co.uk!cosine.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Lines: 23 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38846 comp.sys.cbm:68307 comp.emulators.cbm:20857 TaX RrR: > Alot of Commodore users i know hate Microsoft. How can they? If it wasn't > for Microsoft, their wouldn't be a BASIC V2 on the Great Commodore 64. That's one of the reasons *why* we hate Micro$oft! =-) I use it a fair bit for precalc and hardwiring and it's Rassilon-awful. Okay, so it's fairly quick and probably the tightest piece of code that Bill's mob ever produced, but it still sucks eggs like a hydraulic pump. That said, who the hell uses BASIC?! [1] =-) -- Jason =-) _______________________________________________________________________ TMR / / / / / / / /\ / /__/ / / /__/ / / / /__/ Email: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk / / / /\_/ / /__ / / / / __// Cosine Homepage: / / / /__/ / / / / / / / / / http://www.cosine.demon.co.uk / / /_____/_____/_____/__/__/__/_____/_____________________________________/ / \_____\_____\_____\__\__\__\_____\_____________________________________\/ [1] The phrase "who the hell uses BASIC" is a copyright of Cosine Systems. From holz4061@gmi.edu Wed Jun 4 17:01:22 CDT 1997 Article: 68328 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!holz4061 From: holz4061@gmi.edu (White Flame) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 2 Jun 1997 13:56:26 GMT Organization: GMI Engin. & Mgt. Institute, Flint, MI Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5mujea$gv7$1@news.eecs.umich.edu> References: <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <658.7086T569T1227@airtime.co.uk> <5mg3fh$3lq$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> <01bc6e6e$aa65fdc0$7bc348a6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.138.137.2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38865 comp.sys.cbm:68328 comp.emulators.cbm:20874 §ÝñTaX èRrðR (commodoreboy@cybermail.net) wrote: : > well, Microsoft did write the BASIC for Commodores... : Alot of Commodore users i know hate Microsoft. How can they? If it wasn't : for Microsoft, their wouldn't be a BASIC V2 on the Great Commodore 64. ...and that would be a bad thing? :) -------- White Flame (aka David Holz) Guitar-playing, C=64-using, GMI-attending, holz4061@nova.gmi.edu Dream Theater-listening weird kind o' guy. "And now I will show you the Most Excellent way..." 1 Corinthians 13 "Blood, heal me. Fear, change me. Belief will always save me. Blood, staring. Fear, swearing. Conviction made aware..." - Dream Theater From bartelar@telkom.co.za Wed Jun 4 17:01:25 CDT 1997 Article: 67819 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!196.25.1.18!news1.saix.net!usenet From: bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:55:00 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <338a91ed.4047438@news> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: qtts-bartelar.telkom.co.za X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38203 comp.sys.cbm:67819 comp.emulators.cbm:20409 On 27 May 1997 06:45:40 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" wrote: > > >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... >> On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: > >> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >> inflicted on us, you know. >> > >Apparently, Mulder and Scully investigate how they managed to claim it was >a BASIC interpreter in the next series of the X files. :-) > It's X-files stuff indeed. Ever notice that it's based on a BASIC interpreter from .... Microsoft! It's interesting that the C64 had Commodore BASIC v2 and the next version to get out in meangful numbers was v7 on the 128? (which was actually rather pleasant to use). Seems like the intermediate versions got swallowed up CBM machines that didn't make the big time. Cheers Adrian --------------------------------------------- "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations." -- Tolkien From ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu Wed Jun 4 17:01:28 CDT 1997 Article: 68043 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!sdcc17!ckaiser From: ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu (Po-Ching Lives!) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 23:16:47 GMT Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5miecv$avk$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a91ed.4047438@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: sdcc17.ucsd.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38522 comp.sys.cbm:68043 comp.emulators.cbm:20626 In <338a91ed.4047438@news> bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) writes: >It's interesting that the C64 had Commodore BASIC v2 and the next >version to get out in meangful numbers was v7 on the 128? (which was >actually rather pleasant to use). Seems like the intermediate >versions got swallowed up CBM machines that didn't make the big time. Heh. BASIC 4.0 ran on PETs, 2.0 on VIC20's and 64s, 3.5 on 16 and +4, and 7.0 on 128s. What was Commodore counting in, reverse hexadecimal or something? Cameron Kaiser ckaiser@ucsd.edu www.computerworkshops.home.ml.org >"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of > your calculations." -- Tolkien A good book, that. From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:30 CDT 1997 Article: 68058 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 29 May 1997 07:36:47 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6c03$01fd2400$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a91ed.4047438@news> <5miecv$avk$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 15 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38548 comp.sys.cbm:68058 comp.emulators.cbm:20641 Po-Ching Lives! wrote in article <5miecv$avk$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>... > In <338a91ed.4047438@news> bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) writes: > Heh. BASIC 4.0 ran on PETs, 2.0 on VIC20's and 64s, 3.5 on 16 and > +4, and 7.0 on 128s. What was Commodore counting in, reverse > hexadecimal or something? > Prehaps they were using the same random number generated used for the Next Month date in all those Future 8-bit mags. ;-) Andy From felinoid@ccnet.com Wed Jun 4 17:01:34 CDT 1997 Article: 68151 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!usc!ccnet.com!ccnet.com!not-for-mail From: felinoid@ccnet.com (Jeffery C McLean) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 30 May 1997 16:39:57 -0700 Organization: CCnet Communications (510-988-7140 guest) Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5mnogd$3gp$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a91ed.4047438@news> <5miecv$avk$1@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccnet3.ccnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38690 comp.sys.cbm:68151 comp.emulators.cbm:20734 Po-Ching Lives! (ckaiser@sdcc17.ucsd.edu) wrote: : In <338a91ed.4047438@news> bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) writes: : >It's interesting that the C64 had Commodore BASIC v2 and the next : >version to get out in meangful numbers was v7 on the 128? (which was : >actually rather pleasant to use). Seems like the intermediate : >versions got swallowed up CBM machines that didn't make the big time. : Heh. BASIC 4.0 ran on PETs, 2.0 on VIC20's and 64s, 3.5 on 16 and : +4, and 7.0 on 128s. What was Commodore counting in, reverse : hexadecimal or something? PET had Basic 1.0 to 6.?? (There were many Pets from the original pet to the "Super Pet") Vic20s and 64 had v2 etc Basic V1 - Would not load or save from flopy disk Disk drive only good for text files... had to load and save software to/from built in tape drive... Basic V2 - Disk drive works Basic v3 - Commands added to make it easyer to use disk drive... v4-v6 commands added v3.5- commands added for all kinds of things not related to the PET v7.0 - Microsoft added commands v7.1 - Commodore fixed V7.0 v8.0 - Third party enhancement to 7.0/7.1 I do not know what Basic was used by CBMs or by the B series... -- Vote for Jeffery C McLean for City Council in the city of Concord California Internet:felinoid@ccnet.com FidoNet:5249@1:125/233 http://www.ccnet.com/~felinoid From bartelar@telkom.co.za Wed Jun 4 17:01:37 CDT 1997 Article: 67821 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!196.25.1.18!news1.saix.net!usenet From: bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:08:47 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange. Lines: 48 Message-ID: <338a9647.5161663@news> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6a69$8a0ab880$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: qtts-bartelar.telkom.co.za X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38205 comp.sys.cbm:67821 comp.emulators.cbm:20411 On 27 May 1997 06:45:40 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" wrote: > > >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... >> On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: > >> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >> inflicted on us, you know. >> > As I was saying about the dreaded Nicrsoft having a hand in it... >from http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~danf/cbm/languages.html $ Microsoft V1.0 BASIC [PET] (Microsoft) Built-in to the PET 2001. $ Microsoft V2.0 BASIC [C64,PET] (Microsoft) Built-in to C64 and PET 30xx. $ Microsoft V3.5 BASIC [264] (Microsoft) Built-in to Plus/4, C16 and 116 (264 series). Adds disk, graphics, sound commands, etc. with partial compatibility with BASIC V4.0. Includes 80 commands. $ Microsoft V3.6 BASIC [CLCD] (Microsoft) Built-in to Commodore LCD computer. Adds some improvements to BASIC V3.5. $ Microsoft V4.0 BASIC [PET] (Microsoft) Built-in to some PET/CBM machines. Adds disk commands to BASIC V2.0. $ Microsoft V4.5 BASIC [B-series] (Microsoft) $ Microsoft V7.0 BASIC [C128] (Microsoft) Built-in to C128 (in 128 mode). Superset of BASIC V3.5. $ Microsoft V10.0 BASIC [C65] (Microsoft) Built-in to C65 (in 65 mode). Superset of BASIC V7.0. Cheers Adrian --------------------------------------------- "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations." -- Tolkien From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:39 CDT 1997 Article: 67839 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 10:41:16 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 32 Message-ID: <945.7086T641T839@airtime.co.uk> References: <338a9647.5161663@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38226 comp.sys.cbm:67839 comp.emulators.cbm:20428 On 27-May-97 Adrian Bartel wrote: >On 27 May 1997 06:45:40 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" >wrote: >>Bill Hoggett wrote in article >><2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>... >>> On 26-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: >> >>> As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >>> inflicted on us, you know. >As I was saying about the dreaded Nicrsoft having a hand in it... >from http://vanbc.wimsey.com/~danf/cbm/languages.html [..list snipped..] Aren't you forgetting that other major atrocity: $ Microsoft BASIC for the Amiga (1985) There's no version number in the manual, and I con't be bothered to dig out my 1.3 disks to find out if there's one in the binary. Thank you Microsoft, for everything. :-( --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From georg@sgl.ists.ca Wed Jun 4 17:01:41 CDT 1997 Article: 67885 of comp.sys.cbm Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!rutgers.rutgers.edu!usenet.logical.net!news.IAEhv.nl!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!ists!georg From: georg@sgl.ists.ca (Georg Feil) Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Message-ID: Sender: news@newshub.ists.ca Nntp-Posting-Host: s2.sgl.ists.ca Organization: Institute for Space and Terrestrial Science X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:34:29 GMT Lines: 14 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38279 comp.sys.cbm:67885 comp.emulators.cbm:20468 hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) writes: >As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >inflicted on us, you know. Ahhh but you can blame Bill Gates for that. Commodore Basic was written by Microsoft. I heard a lot of it was even done by Bill himself. Georg -- Georg Feil | http://www.sgl.ists.ca/~georg Space Geodynamics Laboratory | Email: georg@sgl.ists.ca Institute for Space and Terrestrial Science | Phone: (416) 665-5458 4850 Keele St./North York/Ont/Canada/M3J 3K1 | Fax: (416) 665-1815 From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:44 CDT 1997 Article: 67874 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 29 May 97 16:11:25 +0500 Organization: None Specified Message-ID: <577.7088T971T1272@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan2.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Lines: 18 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38259 comp.sys.cbm:67874 comp.emulators.cbm:20450 On 28-May-97 Georg Feil wrote: >hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) writes: >>As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >>inflicted on us, you know. >Ahhh but you can blame Bill Gates for that. Commodore Basic was written >by Microsoft. I heard a lot of it was even done by Bill himself. Makes no difference. I blame Bill Gates for everything anyway. On principle. But that's another story... --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From felinoid@ccnet.com Wed Jun 4 17:01:47 CDT 1997 Article: 68132 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!usc!ccnet.com!ccnet.com!not-for-mail From: felinoid@ccnet.com (Jeffery C McLean) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 29 May 1997 07:39:51 -0700 Organization: CCnet Communications (510-988-7140 guest) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5mk4fn$gt4$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccnet3.ccnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38649 comp.sys.cbm:68132 comp.emulators.cbm:20714 Georg Feil (georg@sgl.ists.ca) wrote: : hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) writes: : >As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore : >inflicted on us, you know. : Ahhh but you can blame Bill Gates for that. Commodore Basic was written : by Microsoft. I heard a lot of it was even done by Bill himself. Why are people saying Microsoft wrote Commodores Basic? Commodore wrote Commodore basic from the PET all the way to the last commodore 8 bit... Microsoft was only called in to modify Commodore 128 basic and they did a realy bad job... Commodore had to fix all the bugs Microsoft put in... -- Vote for Jeffery C McLean for City Council in the city of Concord California Internet:felinoid@ccnet.com FidoNet:5249@1:125/233 http://www.ccnet.com/~felinoid From no@junk.mail Wed Jun 4 17:01:49 CDT 1997 Article: 68078 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.ti.com!news.dseg.ti.com!news From: no@junk.mail (Mike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 13:01:44 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5mmj3o$7p8@sf18.dseg.ti.com> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mk4fn$gt4$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cns0599352.dseg.ti.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (16bit) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38583 comp.sys.cbm:68078 comp.emulators.cbm:20653 In article <5mk4fn$gt4$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com>, felinoid@ccnet.com says... > >Why are people saying Microsoft wrote Commodores Basic? >Commodore wrote Commodore basic from the PET all the way to the last >commodore 8 bit... >Microsoft was only called in to modify Commodore 128 basic >and they did a realy bad job... Commodore had to fix >all the bugs Microsoft put in... You've got it backwards. Microsloth wrote the original BASIC, its been CBM that has been modifying the BASIC ever since. On some PETs (BASIC 1.0?), you can type WAIT 6502,X and the word "Microsoft!" appears on the screan X times. Also notice the copyright date for Microsoft that comes up on the C128 screen is 1977, not 1985. -- Because the junk mailers of the world think my address is their play thing, my e-mail address will not be revealed. Please respond publicly. ************Thank you junk mailers for ruining the internet************ From commodoreboy@cybermail.net Wed Jun 4 17:01:51 CDT 1997 Article: 68219 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.nether.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!prodigy.com!not-for-mail From: "§ÝñTaX èRrðR" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 1 Jun 1997 09:59:45 GMT Organization: Cardogian Software Lines: 8 Message-ID: <01bc6e71$b4d132e0$7bc348a6@default> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip166-72-195-139.fl.us.ibm.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38788 comp.sys.cbm:68219 comp.emulators.cbm:20788 Why don't you people take this discussion over to com.emulators.cbm -- LONG LIVE THE COMMODORE 64!! http://www.cybermail.net/~cgi +====================================================================+ + I am Homer of Borg.... prepare to be assim... oooo... Donuts... + +====================================================================+ From rjp10@ukc.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:01:54 CDT 1997 Article: 68295 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!ukc!falcon.ukc.ac.uk!rjp10 From: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk (Wob) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.emulators.cbm Date: Sun, 01 Jun 97 18:55:44 GMT Organization: University of Kent at Canterbury, UK. Lines: 11 Sender: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk Message-ID: <15146@falcon.ukc.ac.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <01bc6e71$b4d132e0$7bc348a6@default> Reply-To: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk (Wob) NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.ukc.ac.uk Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38833 comp.sys.cbm:68295 comp.emulators.cbm:20844 In article <01bc6e71$b4d132e0$7bc348a6@default>, ÝñTaX èRrðR wrote: >Why don't you people take this discussion over to >com.emulators.cbm Because there is no such group. Followups to this article are set to comp.emulators.cbm ;-) Wob From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:01:57 CDT 1997 Article: 67942 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 04:04:33 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38367 comp.sys.cbm:67942 comp.emulators.cbm:20512 In article <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>, Bill Hoggett wrote: > >Generally true, but the reason for lack of Disk Drive support in Europe >was the greed of Commodore. In their effort to make their price more >attractive they cut out _all_ storage devices from the C64 as originally >distributed. That's right, when my parents splashed out what was a considerable >amount of money at the time (early 1984), the C64 came without _any_ storage >device, or joystick, or any software at all. I had to save up my pocket >money for ages before I could buy a tape drive. I remember writing a cricket >game in BASIC - inspired by seeing Test Match on the Speccy - and leaving >the computer on at all times because I had no way of saving my work. After >the first power cut I always copied the code into a notebook at the end of >the day in case of accidents. A disk drive was out of the question, since >Commodore were charging more for that than the C64 itself. When I bought my 64 (November, 1984) the 64 cost $190 and the disk drive was $200. (I took on an extra paper route and saved for four months). Yep, I had to save a while before buying games and joysticks, too! But all of my computer equipment has always been self-financed. My dad had bought a 64 but no disk drive some months earlier -- my storage device was a pen and paper :). Disk drives were expensive here too but people abandoned their tape drives pretty darn fast. Of course, one of the main reasons for their cost is the fact that they are intelligent -- the 6510, 4k of RAM, etc. Expensive, but well worth the cost! The reasons why they are so pathetically slow is an interesting story in and of itself; it is at least somewhere on the web, but I totally forget where :). >As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >inflicted on us, you know. Heh. :) BASIC is fine for many things, although other things are pretty pathetic. Still, it has hooks in it and so isn't too difficult to modify or add commands to, which helps :). -S >Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:02:00 CDT 1997 Article: 68068 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 11:07:23 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 18 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38566 comp.sys.cbm:68068 comp.emulators.cbm:20648 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>, > Bill Hoggett wrote: > Heh. :) BASIC is fine for many things, although other things are pretty > pathetic. Still, it has hooks in it and so isn't too difficult to > modify or add commands to, which helps :). Commodore BASIC is absolutely useless. I think that's are fairly well justified statement, that few people could honestly disagree with. As for hooks, that's a really shite way of adding commands. Give me loverly CPC RSX's anyday. :-) Andy From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:02:06 CDT 1997 Article: 68102 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 18:04:15 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38616 comp.sys.cbm:68102 comp.emulators.cbm:20684 In article <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136>, Andrew Cadley wrote: > > >Stephen Judd wrote in article ><5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu>... >> In article <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>, >> Bill Hoggett wrote: > >> Heh. :) BASIC is fine for many things, although other things are pretty >> pathetic. Still, it has hooks in it and so isn't too difficult to >> modify or add commands to, which helps :). > >Commodore BASIC is absolutely useless. I guess the use of something is directly related to the skill of its user. I use BASIC for many things related to my research. I have written differential equation solvers, I have used it to investigate transcendental equations. I have a set of bifurcation equation coefficients which I use to compute various eigenvalues (related to relative pattern stability, if you're interested), which I have used BASIC to investigate. Using the BASIC hooks I wrote a set of very fast graphics functions (lines, points, circles). I use them for various things, including investigating various functions, plotting bifurcation diagrams for the above system, etc. I use BASIC to investigate many ideas I might have, and to investigate many mathematical things that I happen to come across. Finally, I use BASIC to prototype most of my algorithms (at least the complicated ones). Naturally, for computationally intensive tasks I don't use it; I have a nice HP workstation for them. For simple calculations I think its just great. -S From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:02:08 CDT 1997 Article: 68111 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!194.159.255.23!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 19:02:36 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 58 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38626 comp.sys.cbm:68111 comp.emulators.cbm:20693 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136>, > Andrew Cadley wrote: > >Commodore BASIC is absolutely useless. > > I guess the use of something is directly related to the skill of its > user. Okay but be honest when you answer the questions I ask you relating to your points. > I use BASIC for many things related to my research. I have written > differential equation solvers, I have used it to investigate transcendental > equations. I have a set of bifurcation equation coefficients which > I use to compute various eigenvalues (related to relative pattern > stability, if you're interested), which I have used BASIC to investigate. Given the mathematics involved in some of this, wouldn't you prefer a BASIC that ran faster? > Using the BASIC hooks I wrote a set of very fast graphics functions > (lines, points, circles). I use them for various things, including > investigating various functions, plotting bifurcation diagrams for > the above system, etc. Forget hooks, wouldn't it be nice if you could just write a machine code program, associate it with a name and then use it like '|Circle,45,3,2' or something? Even better still, if these commands could be located in a ROM chip so that you didn't waste system RAM. > I use BASIC to investigate many ideas I might have, and to investigate > many mathematical things that I happen to come across. Once again, wouldn't you prefer a faster implementation? > Finally, I use BASIC to prototype most of my algorithms (at least the > complicated ones). Wouldn't you prefer a BASIC editor which actually acted as though it had been designed with the user in mind when doing so? > Naturally, for computationally intensive tasks I don't use it; I have > a nice HP workstation for them. For simple calculations I think its > just great. > If you answered yes to the above questions then why not get hold of a CPC and use the lovely Locomotive BASIC? It has all these features and more including Multi-tasking event timers and sound queues. Lot's of high resolution graphics functions (which can be used on low res screens without modification) and a load of other things missing from C64 Basic. Andy From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 17:02:11 CDT 1997 Article: 68269 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news.he.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 16:57:28 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 10 Message-ID: <33917FC8.2943@adm.hioslo.no> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38819 comp.sys.cbm:68269 comp.emulators.cbm:20826 Andrew Cadley wrote: > If you answered yes to the above questions then why not get hold of a CPC > and use the lovely Locomotive BASIC? It has all these features and more > including Multi-tasking event timers and sound queues. Lot's of high > resolution graphics functions (which can be used on low res screens without > modification) and a load of other things missing from C64 Basic. Or he could use another Basic for his C64. Like "Simons Basic". --- Ivar Fiske From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:02:15 CDT 1997 Article: 68421 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 2 Jun 1997 23:57:12 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 60 Message-ID: <5mvmko$saq@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38993 comp.sys.cbm:68421 comp.emulators.cbm:20937 Since you asked, though, I will follow up to this one :) In article <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136>, Andrew Cadley wrote: > > >Stephen Judd wrote in article ><5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu>... >> >> I guess the use of something is directly related to the skill of its >> user. > >Okay but be honest when you answer the questions I ask you relating to your >points. > >> I use BASIC for many things related to my research. I have written >> differential equation solvers, I have used it to investigate >transcendental >> equations. I have a set of bifurcation equation coefficients which >> I use to compute various eigenvalues (related to relative pattern >> stability, if you're interested), which I have used BASIC to investigate. > >Given the mathematics involved in some of this, wouldn't you prefer a BASIC >that ran faster? 1. It is a safe bet to assume that I have Maple and other powerful tools available on my extremely fast workstation(s), not to mention a good FORTRAN and C compiler. 2. I also use a calculator (and even a slide rule) from time to time. For instance, this morning I did my monthly checkbook balancing. 3. Earlier you stated that 8-bits were enough for almost all computing needs. Why does anyone use an 8-bit computer? A knee-jerk response is of course possible at this point, but I always advocate thought before action. Anyone can easily reason this one out. >> Using the BASIC hooks I wrote a set of very fast graphics functions >> (lines, points, circles). I use them for various things, including >> investigating various functions, plotting bifurcation diagrams for >> the above system, etc. > >Forget hooks, wouldn't it be nice if you could just write a machine code >program, associate it with a name and then use it like '|Circle,45,3,2' or >something? Even better still, if these commands could be located in a ROM >chip so that you didn't waste system RAM. This is why it's called a "hook". Not only do my commands have their own keywords, they have their own tokens. (BASIC programs on the 64, and presumably ever other microcomputer, are stored in tokenized format). My program is literally an extension of the BASIC interpreter. As to being in ROM: no, actually I much prefer a fast command that does what I want to a fat, slow command that tries to satisfy every possible need. Besides, my algorithms are far superior. -S From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:02:21 CDT 1997 Article: 68451 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 3 Jun 1997 06:25:22 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 35 Message-ID: <01bc6fe6$daf85400$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mvmko$saq@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39002 comp.sys.cbm:68451 comp.emulators.cbm:20951 comp.sys.amstrad.8bit:6594 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mvmko$saq@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > Since you asked, though, I will follow up to this one :) > > In article <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136>, > Andrew Cadley wrote: > This is why it's called a "hook". Not only do my commands have their > own keywords, they have their own tokens. (BASIC programs on the 64, > and presumably ever other microcomputer, are stored in tokenized format). > > My program is literally an extension of the BASIC interpreter. > > As to being in ROM: no, actually I much prefer a fast command that does > what I want to a fat, slow command that tries to satisfy every possible > need. Besides, my algorithms are far superior. Ah, but the point I was making is that on a CPC you could easily add commands to BASIC, it was just a case of setting a pointer to the command name and calling one of the firmware routines, you didn't need to write complex routines to patch it into the OS. In the case of ROM based routines it was actually automatically added at startup. ROM's can be an EPROM programmed by yourself so commands could be as complex as you required and the algorithms used were, of course, your own choice. RSX's (as they were known) didn't require tokens so you could add as many as you wanted, I assume this was not the case on the C64. Andy From holz4061@gmi.edu Wed Jun 4 17:02:26 CDT 1997 Article: 68630 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!holz4061 From: holz4061@gmi.edu (White Flame) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Date: 4 Jun 1997 21:23:31 GMT Organization: GMI Engin. & Mgt. Institute, Flint, MI Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5n4mcj$slg$2@news.eecs.umich.edu> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6ce9$97a53e20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn4qv$d9i@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2b$fa2e7060$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mvmko$saq@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6fe6$daf85400$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.138.137.2 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39177 comp.sys.cbm:68630 comp.emulators.cbm:21076 comp.sys.amstrad.8bit:6650 Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: : Ah, but the point I was making is that on a CPC you could easily add : commands to BASIC, it was just a case of setting a pointer to the command : name and calling one of the firmware routines, you didn't need to write : complex routines to patch it into the OS. In the case of ROM based routines : it was actually automatically added at startup. : ROM's can be an EPROM programmed by yourself so commands could be as : complex as you required and the algorithms used were, of course, your own : choice. : RSX's (as they were known) didn't require tokens so you could add as many : as you wanted, I assume this was not the case on the C64. : Andy If the C64 tokenizer didn't recognize a command, it would simply store it as-is, so you could add as many commands as you wanted on the C64, also. -------- White Flame (aka David Holz) Guitar-playing, C=64-using, GMI-attending, holz4061@nova.gmi.edu Dream Theater-listening weird kind o' guy. "And now I will show you the Most Excellent way..." 1 Corinthians 13 "Blood, heal me. Fear, change me. Belief will always save me. Blood, staring. Fear, swearing. Conviction made aware..." - Dream Theater From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:02:37 CDT 1997 Article: 68145 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 97 23:43:43 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3507.7089T1423T2179@airtime.co.uk> References: <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38680 comp.sys.cbm:68145 comp.emulators.cbm:20727 On 30-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: >In article <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk>, >Bill Hoggett wrote: >> >>Generally true, but the reason for lack of Disk Drive support in Europe >>was the greed of Commodore. In their effort to make their price more >>attractive they cut out _all_ storage devices from the C64 as originally >>distributed. That's right, when my parents splashed out what was a >>considerable amount of money at the time (early 1984), the C64 came without >>_any_ storage device, or joystick, or any software at all. I had to save up >>my pocket money for ages before I could buy a tape drive. I remember writing >>a cricket game in BASIC - inspired by seeing Test Match on the Speccy - and >>leaving the computer on at all times because I had no way of saving my work. >>After the first power cut I always copied the code into a notebook at the >>end of the day in case of accidents. A disk drive was out of the question, >>since Commodore were charging more for that than the C64 itself. >When I bought my 64 (November, 1984) the 64 cost $190 and the disk drive >was $200. (I took on an extra paper route and saved for four months). Lucky you! My parents bought me my C64 in Jan/Feb '84 as a birthday pressie, and the (very) bare machine cost them 350 UKP. That was a lot of dough in those days. >Yep, I had to save a while before buying games and joysticks, too! >But all of my computer equipment has always been self-financed. Same here, with the exception mentioned above. It was months later that I was able to buy my first game: "Heroes of Karn" - a text adventure with music and graphics. Obligatory Speccy mention: This is one game that was much better on the C64 than on the Speccy, even if the gfx did take a long time to draw. Plea to other C64 adventures: Has anyone got a snap of this game ? I can get Empire of Karn but there's no trace of Heroes anywhere, except the Speccy version at NVG. >My dad had bought a 64 but no disk drive some months earlier -- my >storage device was a pen and paper :). You know, I wish I still had those notebooks I used in those days... >Disk drives were expensive here too but people abandoned their tape >drives pretty darn fast. Of course, one of the main reasons for their >cost is the fact that they are intelligent -- the 6510, 4k of RAM, etc. Therefore I think "ponderous" is a perfect description of the 1541. :-) >Expensive, but well worth the cost! The reasons why they are so >pathetically slow is an interesting story in and of itself; it is >at least somewhere on the web, but I totally forget where :). Shame I could never afford one until _after_ I had grown out of the C64. Another off-putting reason was the cost of disk based s/w. Infocom games like Sorceror sold for 45 UKP here when they came out. Ouch. >>As long as it's not in BASIC. That really was some monstrosity Commodore >>inflicted on us, you know. >Heh. :) BASIC is fine for many things, although other things are pretty >pathetic. Still, it has hooks in it and so isn't too difficult to >modify or add commands to, which helps :). Sure. It's entirely possible that without that C64 programming experience I had right at the beginning I would never have taken up programming, and not been the professional programmer I am today. The C64 has a lot to answer for... --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 17:02:41 CDT 1997 Article: 68270 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:07:57 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3391823D.2E11@adm.hioslo.no> References: <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3507.7089T1423T2179@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38820 comp.sys.cbm:68270 comp.emulators.cbm:20827 Bill Hoggett wrote: > On 30-May-97 Stephen Judd wrote: > >Disk drives were expensive here too but people abandoned their tape > >drives pretty darn fast. Of course, one of the main reasons for their > >cost is the fact that they are intelligent -- the 6510, 4k of RAM, etc. The C64-disc-drives were probably more costly to produce than the C64 and used seriell transfer. --- Ivar Fiske From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:02:45 CDT 1997 Article: 68159 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!rutgers.rutgers.edu!usenet.logical.net!news.radio.cz!news.spinne.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:57:33 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 23 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38706 comp.sys.cbm:68159 comp.emulators.cbm:20741 On 30 May 1997 04:04:33 GMT, judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: >When I bought my 64 (November, 1984) the 64 cost $190 and the disk drive >was $200. (I took on an extra paper route and saved for four months). >Expensive, but well worth the cost! The reasons why they are so >pathetically slow is an interesting story in and of itself; it is >at least somewhere on the web, but I totally forget where :). If you remember, do post the URL. I'm honestly interested in why they were so slow. Reminds me of some of the ST loading routines I saw - Outrun or R-Type on the ST loaded about the same speed (maybe slower!) than the Speccy tape versions. Mind you, they were software cockups. I suspect the 64's disk drives were hardware cockups, no? -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:02:54 CDT 1997 Article: 68192 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Jason Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: Sat, 31 May 97 14:53:29 GMT Organization: Cosine Systems Message-ID: <9705311453.AA00ftb@cosine.demon.co.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> X-Mail2News-User: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-1.mail.demon.net!gate.demon.co.uk!cosine.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Lines: 45 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38749 comp.sys.cbm:68192 comp.emulators.cbm:20767 Steve Judd: > Expensive, but well worth the cost! The reasons why they are so > pathetically slow is an interesting story in and of itself; it is > at least somewhere on the web, but I totally forget where :). Damien Burke: > If you remember, do post the URL. I'm honestly interested in why > they were so slow. That was a hangover from the VIC 20, the original design on the VIC had eight bits coming in at a time without assistance from the CPU and giving a pretty quick transfer. Trouble was, the chip doing the shifting was flawed, the register mucked about with other functions. So they had to put a dog-slow serial system in place which tied the CPU up. When the C64 came along it didn't *have* the flaw (different chip doing the I/O) and C= could have easily returned to their original idea and got the drive going *much* faster (about six times, max) but they wanted to retain backwards compatibility with the VIC, so the C64 had to put up with the same system, which got even *slower* because of the screen DMA. Commodore World issue 11 had an article on it which I was reading on the bus home yesterday! =-) > Reminds me of some of the ST loading routines I saw - Outrun or R-Type > on the ST loaded about the same speed (maybe slower!) than the Speccy > tape versions. Mind you, they were software cockups. I suspect the 64's > disk drives were hardware cockups, no? Yeah... Did you hear about the ST protection system developed by a guy at Elite? It had the drive head tracking all the way out to the furthest track and coming back. But he developed it on an external drive and nobody tested it when it went out. Thousands of internal drive owners called to say that they'd tried the software, the head went out and got *jammed* there! They had to get engineers out to recover it! =-) -- Jason =-) _______________________________________________________________________ TMR / / / / / / / /\ / /__/ / / /__/ / / / /__/ Email: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk / / / /\_/ / /__ / / / / __// Cosine Homepage: / / / /__/ / / / / / / / / / http://www.cosine.demon.co.uk / / /_____/_____/_____/__/__/__/_____/_____________________________________/ / \_____\_____\_____\__\__\__\_____\_____________________________________\/ From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:02:57 CDT 1997 Article: 68198 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:41:24 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <33907aaf.14432810@news.demon.co.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> <9705311453.AA00ftb@cosine.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 44 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38763 comp.sys.cbm:68198 comp.emulators.cbm:20774 On Sat, 31 May 97 14:53:29 GMT, Jason wrote: [about the 64's really slow disk drive] >That was a hangover from the VIC 20, the original design on the VIC had ... >drive going *much* faster (about six times, max) but they wanted to retain >backwards compatibility with the VIC, so the C64 had to put up with the >same system, which got even *slower* because of the screen DMA. Ahhh... backwards compatibility. Of course. I should have guessed - if there's anything crap about a machine it's generally because it's trying to support some aspect of a previous machine. I won't start on about PCs ;) >Yeah... Did you hear about the ST protection system developed by a guy >at Elite? It had the drive head tracking all the way out to the furthest >track and coming back. But he developed it on an external drive and >nobody tested it when it went out. Thousands of internal drive owners >called to say that they'd tried the software, the head went out and got >*jammed* there! They had to get engineers out to recover it! =-) Hmmm... sounds like a bit of an urban myth to me - I was involved with ST software protection at the time. The best demonstration I was treated to was somebody defeating the latest, supposedly uncrackable, system - in about 15 seconds. It was a bit silly to see the same old ideas from the Speccy being used in ST protection though - i.e. screw up the original media enough so that copying it is physically difficult, and check the media while loading to see if it's as 'damaged' as you expect. What was protection like on the 64? We had a number of interesting routines on the Speccy, but they were generally a waste of time - any good quality tape deck could copy them without much hassle. Some of the more unusual attempts gave people a lot of gyp - e.g. LensLok, which involved placing a plastic lens over your screen to read a scrambled pair of letters. Only really worked on a 14" TV screen... if you were lucky and squinted a lot. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:01 CDT 1997 Article: 68210 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Jason Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: Sat, 31 May 97 23:07:59 GMT Organization: Cosine Systems Message-ID: <9705312307.AA00ftw@cosine.demon.co.uk> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> <9705311453.AA00ftb@cosine.demon.co.uk> <33907aaf.14432810@news.demon.co.uk> X-Mail2News-User: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-1.mail.demon.net!gate.demon.co.uk!cosine.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Lines: 73 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38777 comp.sys.cbm:68210 comp.emulators.cbm:20782 Damien Burke: > Ahhh... backwards compatibility. Of course. I should have > guessed - if there's anything crap about a machine it's > generally because it's trying to support some aspect of a > previous machine. I won't start on about PCs ;) That's good, it saves a couple of gig... Jason =-) > Yeah... Did you hear about the ST protection system developed by a guy > at Elite? It had the drive head tracking all the way out to the furthest > track and coming back... Damien Burke: > Hmmm... sounds like a bit of an urban myth to me - I was > involved with ST software protection at the time. The best > demonstration I was treated to was somebody defeating the > latest, supposedly uncrackable, system - in about 15 seconds. Well, that's not unusual. The best protectors are always crackers. I'm not sure about the urban myth, I got it from a "reputable" source, ie another protection expert told me. =-) Now if you want to talk *good* protection, the loader for "Venom Wing" (Amiga) by Thalamus was a prime example. It was *so* good that the duplicator at Ablex couldn't *copy* the poxy master! =-) Poor Peter Opdam spent a month in England (for what should have just been a three day visit) trying to *remove* some of the protection to make the game duplicable! > It was a bit silly to see the same old ideas from the Speccy > being used in ST protection though - i.e. screw up the original > media enough so that copying it is physically difficult, and > check the media while loading to see if it's as 'damaged' as you > expect. Ah, the old Ocean disk protection did something like that, there was an error on the disk that didn't come out the same when it was copied, and if the drive didn't report the same error it didn't let you in. Problem was that Fast Hack 'Em could duplicate the disk! =-) CyberDOS was another fun one, it resisted most disk copiers, but if you just copied the disk and loaded "CY*" (which wasn't visible on the directory) it ran... > What was protection like on the 64? We had a number of > interesting routines on the Speccy, but they were generally a > waste of time - any good quality tape deck could copy them > without much hassle. Well, most of the tape routines varied from average to pretty decent. Little tricks like reloading the header after the point where you lost control of the program, loading data backwards and that sort of thing. The *best* tape protection was never actually used, it was Powerload, coded by Cosine's very own Odie. It had *everything* as well as a few new tricks that meant nobody got in, even Odie! =-) Speakin' of whom, if you've got the software going already, hola Sean! =-) > Some of the more unusual attempts gave people a lot of gyp - e.g. > LensLok, which involved placing a plastic lens over your screen to > read a scrambled pair of letters. Only really worked on a 14" TV > screen... if you were lucky and squinted a lot. The C64 version of OCP Art Studio came with Lens Lok hardware. But wasn't protected with it! =-) Good thing really, I couldn't do the sodding thing on the Speccy... -- Jason =-) _______________________________________________________________________ TMR / / / / / / / /\ / /__/ / / /__/ / / / /__/ Email: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk / / / /\_/ / /__ / / / / __// Cosine Homepage: / / / /__/ / / / / / / / / / http://www.cosine.demon.co.uk / / /_____/_____/_____/__/__/__/_____/_____________________________________/ / \_____\_____\_____\__\__\__\_____\_____________________________________\/ From russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:04 CDT 1997 Article: 68394 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!raiden.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk (Russ Juckes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:55:51 BST Organization: Under the megatree Message-ID: References: <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> <9705311453.AA00ftb@cosine.demon.co.uk> <33907aaf.14432810@news.demon.co.uk> <9705312307.AA00ftw@cosine.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk [158.152.191.228] X-Newsreader: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Lines: 37 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38956 comp.sys.cbm:68394 comp.emulators.cbm:20915 Jason wrote: >> It was a bit silly to see the same old ideas from the Speccy being used >> in ST protection though - i.e. screw up the original media enough so >> that copying it is physically difficult, and check the media while >> loading to see if it's as 'damaged' as you expect. > Ah, the old Ocean disk protection did something like that, there was an > error on the disk that didn't come out the same when it was copied, and > if the drive didn't report the same error it didn't let you in. Problem > was that Fast Hack 'Em could duplicate the disk! =-) CyberDOS was > another fun one, it resisted most disk copiers, but if you just copied > the disk and loaded "CY*" (which wasn't visible on the directory) it > ran... Sony use a similar trick in preventing their black Ps discs to be copied: (This is all from something I read in passing a year or so back, so I may be wrong on the finer details.) The first few sectors on the disc are coded as being damaged, and the PS checks for this during bootup. If it finds the sectros marked as unreadable, it continues with the bootup, and runs the game, if not, it hangs. Most cd burners have integral error checkers in them, and when copying a disc, if they find a damaged sector, won't copy it, so when the PS checks a gold disc, it finds blank sectors, instead of what it's looking for, and hangs. Pretty clever really - it's not easy to persuade a copier to actually copy damaged sectors, but there are ways around it... -- "My God... It's full of stars..." russ_j@edgemail.ha1.com http://www.raiden.demon.co.uk From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:06 CDT 1997 Article: 68267 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 01 Jun 97 15:09:27 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1647.7091T909T1391@airtime.co.uk> References: <33907aaf.14432810@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan7.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38812 comp.sys.cbm:68267 comp.emulators.cbm:20824 On 01-Jun-97 Damien Burke wrote: >Hmmm... sounds like a bit of an urban myth to me - I was >involved with ST software protection at the time. The best >demonstration I was treated to was somebody defeating the >latest, supposedly uncrackable, system - in about 15 seconds. >It was a bit silly to see the same old ideas from the Speccy >being used in ST protection though - i.e. screw up the original >media enough so that copying it is physically difficult, and >check the media while loading to see if it's as 'damaged' as you >expect. Yeah, they did that on the Amiga too. The number of times the disk drive started making horrible grinding noises during normal load... >What was protection like on the 64? We had a number of >interesting routines on the Speccy, but they were generally a >waste of time - any good quality tape deck could copy them >without much hassle. Some of the more unusual attempts gave >people a lot of gyp - e.g. LensLok, which involved placing a >plastic lens over your screen to read a scrambled pair of >letters. Only really worked on a 14" TV screen... if you were >lucky and squinted a lot. I hope the invertor of Lenslok got shot with a nail gun. And rusty nails. We got it on the C64 too, and it sure wasn't any easier to "decode". I don't know much about the copy protection on C64 tapes, but many were a pain to copy on ordinary tape decks so I used a freeze cart. The drawback is that you lose any loading screens, like the cool one on Lords of Midnight. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP Wed Jun 4 17:03:09 CDT 1997 Article: 68507 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.telstra.net!act.news.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!not-for-mail From: Spit@Spam-Free.UUCP Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 01:55:28 Organization: Square-eyed keyboard jockeys inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <19970604.1131E8.207E@Spam-Free.UUCP> References: <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <2854.7085T1021T2128@airtime.co.uk> <5mljkh$mk3@news.acns.nwu.edu> <33901a6c.5052936@news.demon.co.uk> <9705311453.AA00ftb@cosine.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts5-6.interact.net.au X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39051 comp.sys.cbm:68507 comp.emulators.cbm:20991 Jason (tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk) wrote: > > When the C64 came along it didn't *have* the flaw (different chip doing the > I/O) and C= could have easily returned to their original idea and got the > drive going *much* faster (about six times, max) but they wanted to retain > backwards compatibility with the VIC, so the C64 had to put up with the > same system, which got even *slower* because of the screen DMA. Yeah, it's wierd that don't you think? The chickenheads could have made the C64 work with the 1540, along with a new, improved drive ala 1551 for the C16/plus4. CBM had BasicV4 installed in PETs long before the C64 came out. Looking back, methinks C= didn't expect floppy disks to catch on in a big way, else we would have had a fast drive with basic commands to operate it, just like with the 264 series. -- +-\___ ___ ______ __ __/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\=/=\-+ : / __)| _ \||_ _| /__/_/ "Bunch of savages in this town..." - Dante : |:__ \: _:: :: : @# '') Spammers, E-mail me for my real address... | `(____/|_|><|_||_|><><\__3- - -* <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>' From jonathan@wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:16 CDT 1997 Article: 67722 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk!wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk!jonathan From: Jonathan Tranter Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:21:49 +0100 Organization: wolves4westbrom2 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk [194.222.98.77] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.04 beta 4 Lines: 96 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38083 comp.sys.cbm:67722 comp.emulators.cbm:20308 In article <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd writes >Another expert speaks! >A great many people use their 64's for very useful work. In fact, the >majority of users today do so -- you just can't keep playing the same >games for 15 years. And why is it still useful as a computer today? >Obviously because it was well designed, and can still do most tasks people >need done. Yes I agree, the C64 versions of Microsoft Office and Lotus Smartsuite are very good. >While it's a foreign concept (literally) to many Europeans, a disk >drive extends that much further: once freed of the shackles of a >tape drive, you can store things on disk and retrieve them when >needed -- a basic form of random access virtual memory (and one of the many >reasons those of us in the USA are so shocked to learn that so many >Europeans used tape drives, and are so disappointed when we see the tape >versions of our favorite games). > >Almost any program developed after 1985 in the US used this to great >advantage. Hmmmmmmm... can't help thinking "the foreign concept..." line is going to send this discussion downhill somewhat! But thanks for educating us non-Americans about the advantages of a disk drive, it was really helpful. I remember having the tape version of Dragon's Lair on my C64. Dragon's Lair was a multi-stage game, and while you was playing one stage the next stage was loading in. The disk version didn't do this making it worse than the tape version, so the latter medium did have some better versions of games. Creating a usable computer that was affordable by most was the prime aim of Sinclair Research, and the fact that this meant using televisions, cassette recorders and (random-access) Microdrives was unavoidable. When disk drives did become cheaper I guess most Speccy users didn't find the need to upgrade for whatever reason, I don't know. The Spectrum did have reliable and fast 3.5"" and 3"" drives, and of course the former is still the standard storage medium today. Also at the risk of being wrong, was the humble Microdrive faster than the Commodore disk drive ? Even the standard Speccy tape i/o routines were nearly as fast as the standard C64 disk routines. >>it's benefit, but they pale in comparison to the fact that the spectrum >>was a more flexible, easier machine, and THAT'S why they sold more in >>the UK. > >And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. That's a very brave >logic you posess. Not *everywhere* else, no doubt you'll get a complete accurate list from other people. It's important to remember that Commodore, who are now dead (sadly for you Stephen, bought out by Europeans), had a much bigger marketing machine than a small outfit such as Sinclair. I think that the fact that in the UK (where Sinclair were able to compete with Commodore) the Speccy outsold the C64, is a good example of the Speccy's dominance. >You can argue with success, but not in the case of the 64. Without >much marketing, and without any substantial improvements in the basic >design, it was produced for over a decade and sold an enormous number >of units -- the #1 selling computer of all time. And it is still not >only used but actively developed for, both in hardware and software. I like the statement "You can argue with success, but not in the case of the 64.". Why not, because you don't want anybody to ? Also I don't understand "not much marketing". Commodore just produced the machine and didn't tell anybody about it, is that it ? How did Commodore undermarket the C64 compared to Atari, Sinclair or Amstrad ? >If you really don't understand the reasons, then I suggest that you >do a little research on the subject: visit some web sites, get ahold >of a 64, use a variety of programs on it, and try programming it. Most of us readers of any of the three newsgroups are quite researched on the subject otherwise we wouldn't subscribe. I speak for many people (although not all obviously) who owned both the Speccy and the C64 when I say that I much preferred my Speccy for a whole host of reasons. The C64 was better for arcade style games, but as you said very well yourself, games are not the only important issue. >You might be amazed at just what can't be done on a 64. Yes, if you pressed the C= key and Shift repeatedly you got all of the letters to jump up and down... (I assume you meant "can be done!") > -S ( http://stratus.esam.nwu.edu/~judd/fridge ) Jonathan Tranter e-mail: jonathan@wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk Microprocessor Simulation Software: www.wolves4westbrom2.demon.co.uk From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:19 CDT 1997 Article: 67797 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 05:09:27 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 17 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38173 comp.sys.cbm:67797 comp.emulators.cbm:20390 Jonathan Tranter wrote in article ... > In article <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes > >You might be amazed at just what can't be done on a 64. > > Yes, if you pressed the C= key and Shift repeatedly you got all of the > letters to jump up and down... (I assume you meant "can be done!") > Nah, better than that, just type 395800 (IIRC) into the Basic editor and watch the machine crash. Now that's a classic. ;-) Andy From bartelar@telkom.co.za Wed Jun 4 17:03:22 CDT 1997 Article: 67823 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!196.25.1.18!news1.saix.net!usenet From: bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:16:02 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <338a97d8.5562665@news> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: qtts-bartelar.telkom.co.za X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38206 comp.sys.cbm:67823 comp.emulators.cbm:20412 On 27 May 1997 05:09:27 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" wrote: > > >Jonathan Tranter wrote in article >... >> In article <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd >> writes > >> >You might be amazed at just what can't be done on a 64. >> >> Yes, if you pressed the C= key and Shift repeatedly you got all of the >> letters to jump up and down... (I assume you meant "can be done!") >> > >Nah, better than that, just type 395800 (IIRC) into the Basic editor and >watch the machine crash. Now that's a classic. ;-) Actually, you're probably thinking of 350800, which, along with serval similar numbers, will crash a lot of BASIC interpreters. For this and more fun see: http://www.hut.fi/Misc/cbm/docs/hidden.html Cheers Adrian --------------------------------------------- "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations." -- Tolkien From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:25 CDT 1997 Article: 67829 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 08:48:16 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 21 Message-ID: <01bc6a7a$aa02dd00$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a97d8.5562665@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38211 comp.sys.cbm:67829 comp.emulators.cbm:20418 Adrian Bartel wrote in article <338a97d8.5562665@news>... > On 27 May 1997 05:09:27 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" > wrote: > >Nah, better than that, just type 395800 (IIRC) into the Basic editor and > >watch the machine crash. Now that's a classic. ;-) > > Actually, you're probably thinking of 350800, which, along with serval > similar numbers, will crash a lot of BASIC interpreters. For this and > more fun see: > That's the bunny! Anyway, it doesn't crash Sinclair basic, nor the CPC's Locomotive Basic. Guess that's another point for non-cbm owners. :-) Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:28 CDT 1997 Article: 67838 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 10:53:18 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 27 Message-ID: <859.7086T653T915@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a7a$aa02dd00$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan4.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38225 comp.sys.cbm:67838 comp.emulators.cbm:20427 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Adrian Bartel wrote in article ><338a97d8.5562665@news>... >> On 27 May 1997 05:09:27 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" >> wrote: >> >Nah, better than that, just type 395800 (IIRC) into the Basic editor and >> >watch the machine crash. Now that's a classic. ;-) >> >> Actually, you're probably thinking of 350800, which, along with serval >> similar numbers, will crash a lot of BASIC interpreters. For this and >> more fun see: >> >That's the bunny! >Anyway, it doesn't crash Sinclair basic, nor the CPC's Locomotive Basic. >Guess that's another point for non-cbm owners. :-) Something tells me it was another Microsoft /special/ ! --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:03:33 CDT 1997 Article: 68017 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:26:16 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <338e259b.8319021@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a97d8.5562665@news> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38444 comp.sys.cbm:68017 comp.emulators.cbm:20600 On Tue, 27 May 1997 08:16:02 GMT, bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) wrote: >Actually, you're probably thinking of 350800, which, along with serval >similar numbers, will crash a lot of BASIC interpreters. What, just typing the number in or trying to assign it to a variable? -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:35 CDT 1997 Article: 68023 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 21:27:21 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6ae4$b3fcace0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a97d8.5562665@news> <338e259b.8319021@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 18 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38457 comp.sys.cbm:68023 comp.emulators.cbm:20606 Damien Burke wrote in article <338e259b.8319021@news.demon.co.uk>... > On Tue, 27 May 1997 08:16:02 GMT, bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian > Bartel) wrote: > > >Actually, you're probably thinking of 350800, which, along with serval > >similar numbers, will crash a lot of BASIC interpreters. > > What, just typing the number in or trying to assign it to a > variable? Literally typing it in to the editor on it's own. Something to do with the way C64 basic handles line numbers or something. Probably one of Microsoft's special *features*. ;-) Andy From felinoid@ccnet.com Wed Jun 4 17:03:39 CDT 1997 Article: 67752 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!usc!ccnet.com!ccnet.com!not-for-mail From: felinoid@ccnet.com (Jeffery C McLean) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 28 May 1997 05:33:06 -0700 Organization: CCnet Communications (510-988-7140 guest) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5mh8m2$30p$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a97d8.5562665@news> <338e259b.8319021@news.demon.co.uk> <01bc6ae4$b3fcace0$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccnet3.ccnet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38117 comp.sys.cbm:67752 comp.emulators.cbm:20343 Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: : Literally typing it in to the editor on it's own. Something to do with the : way C64 basic handles line numbers or something. Probably one of : Microsoft's special *features*. ;-) 99e99 works on just about any Basic... The "Microsoft" comment strikes me as a tad off... Might as well blame the problems of Windows95 on the hardware bug in the first Mac (Powersuply problem.. fixed in the upgrade) Commodore wrote there own Basic... I don't know where you guys get that Microsoft had anything to do with Commodore basic... Acualy if you look at Commodore basic and at Microsoft basic you'll see that they are compleatly diffrent... I studyed diffrent basics when I was a nerd child... Micorsoft basic is more like Apple Basic.... and Apple wrote there own basic Microsoft only modifyed Commodore basic for CBM Basic 7 the C128 basic.... before then it was all Commdore... Microsofts copyright dose NOT show up ANYPLACE in CBM Basic.. -- Vote for Jeffery C McLean for City Council in the city of Concord California Internet:felinoid@ccnet.com FidoNet:5249@1:125/233 http://www.ccnet.com/~felinoid From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:43 CDT 1997 Article: 67756 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 1997 13:31:29 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6b6b$64538880$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5c$18b54680$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338a97d8.5562665@news> <338e259b.8319021@news.demon.co.uk> <01bc6ae4$b3fcace0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mh8m2$30p$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 42 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38121 comp.sys.cbm:67756 comp.emulators.cbm:20348 Jeffery C McLean wrote in article <5mh8m2$30p$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com>... > Andrew Cadley (A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk) wrote: > > > : Literally typing it in to the editor on it's own. Something to do with the > : way C64 basic handles line numbers or something. Probably one of > : Microsoft's special *features*. ;-) > > 99e99 works on just about any Basic... > The "Microsoft" comment strikes me as a tad off... > Might as well blame the problems of Windows95 on the hardware bug > in the first Mac (Powersuply problem.. fixed in the upgrade) > I was just going by what C64 owners were posting. > Commodore wrote there own Basic... I don't know where you guys get > that Microsoft had anything to do with Commodore basic... > Acualy if you look at Commodore basic and at Microsoft basic > you'll see that they are compleatly diffrent... > Well, they're both a pile of shite, if that's the same Microsoft Basic which appeared on the Amiga at least. > I studyed diffrent basics when I was a nerd child... > Micorsoft basic is more like Apple Basic.... > and Apple wrote there own basic > What were your conclusions? IMHO, Sinclair basic probably had the fastest floating point routines of any 8 bit, but the CPC's locomotive Basic wins because of it's superior command set and nifty event mechanism. Not to mention that you could add extra commands. Commodore Basic on the other hand, was a joke. Andy From rjp10@ukc.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:45 CDT 1997 Article: 68313 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!ukc!falcon.ukc.ac.uk!rjp10 From: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk (Wob) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 00:14:15 GMT Organization: University of Kent at Canterbury, UK. Sender: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk Message-ID: <15160@falcon.ukc.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <01bc6ae4$b3fcace0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mh8m2$30p$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> <01bc6b6b$64538880$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: rjp10@ukc.ac.uk (Wob) NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.ukc.ac.uk Lines: 20 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38850 comp.sys.cbm:68313 comp.emulators.cbm:20862 In article <01bc6b6b$64538880$04b8de8b@w9622136>, Andrew Cadley wrote: [snip] >What were your conclusions? IMHO, Sinclair basic probably had the fastest >floating point routines of any 8 bit, but the CPC's locomotive Basic wins >because of it's superior command set and nifty event mechanism. Not to >mention that you could add extra commands. You could add extra commands to ZX BASIC when you had an Interface One connected. I know I did. >Andy Wob From imc@ecs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:03:48 CDT 1997 Article: 68349 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!news From: imc@ecs.ox.ac.uk (Ian Collier) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 2 Jun 1997 13:37:34 GMT Organization: Oxford University Computing Laboratory, UK Message-ID: <11130.imc@comlab.ox.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mh8m2$30p$1@ccnet3.ccnet.com> <01bc6b6b$64538880$04b8de8b@w9622136> <15160@falcon.ukc.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: boothp2.ecs.ox.ac.uk X-Local-Date: Monday, 2nd June 1997 at 2:37pm BST Lines: 10 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38904 comp.sys.cbm:68349 comp.emulators.cbm:20883 In article <15160@falcon.ukc.ac.uk>, rjp10@ukc.ac.uk (Wob) wrote: >You could add extra commands to ZX BASIC when you had an Interface One >connected. I know I did. You could add extra commands to ZX BASIC when you didn't have an Interface 1 connected. I know I did. :-) -- ---- Ian Collier : imc@comlab.ox.ac.uk : WWW page (including Spectrum section): ------ http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/users/ian.collier/imc.html From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:03 CDT 1997 Article: 68372 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!server2.netnews.ja.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 26 May 1997 13:51:41 GMT Lines: 88 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mc4hd$gsc$10@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38935 comp.sys.cbm:68372 comp.emulators.cbm:20898 Stephen Judd (judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu) wrote: : Quite the opposite. I simply put the question to you: is anything : in my above statement erroneous? As I see it, it contains three : main points, here outlined for the tunneled of vision: : : 1. Most Europeans used tape drives instead of disk drives. : 2. A disk drive is much more flexible than a tape drive. : 3. Some Europeans, yourself perhaps, often don't : understand why a disk drive is more useful than a tape : drive, perhaps because they've never had one, or used : programs which take advantage of a disk drive. See : point #1. Are you talking NOW????? In THIS DAY and AGE???? You appear to be talking in present tense! What planet are you living on, if youthink people on this side of the pond use TAPE drives???? : As to the spurious nationalistic accusational sanctimony, I find : that many people, when they have nothing really spectacular or witty : to say, resort to attempting to change the subject with spurious : nationalistic accusational sanctimony. You started it.... : The most elusive thing however is why some Europeans think that the : USA views them all as ignorant peons, who when taken city by city : have an aggregate I.Q. sufficient for shoe tying*. In point of fact, : most people in the USA cannot even find Europe on a map, let alone : care what Europeans are doing or thinking. I thus take such statements : as statements of general insecurity, for reasons unknown. : : * Although it would explain Tony Blair ;-) ;-) Ahhh, humour.... AAAR AAAR AAAR.... Mind you, it would explain the vacant grin... . : >these 'European' tape drives (drive?) were faster than your 64's : >disk drive, I don't think we missed out there, did we? : : I have no idea. As I have said, I have no experience with Spectrums. : Tape drives on the 64 are certainly not as fast as disk drives on : the 64 though, especially accelerated disk drives. The thing about us over 'ere was, we bought computers that were affordable. If memory serves, (I'm probably underestimating the price here), when the Commode 64 used to cost 320 quid, the Speccy used to cost 130. Now, if you wanted a TAPE player for the C64, then that'd set you back another 50 or so. A disk drive would cost another 250 or so quid. So... For the price of 130, + maybe 15 or 20 quid for a good tape recorder, my 48K speccy had just as many games, a lot better, than the commodore. SO, what would you pay, if you were a schoolkid with 1.50 or 2 quid pocket money every week????? : Somehow, though, I thought my point was that a disk drive was much more : flexible and useful than a tape drive. Ah well... In most cases yes, but the standard, overpriced C64 disk drive was the biggest joke of the decade. : >>And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. : > : >Absolute utter crap. Please list every single country where the : >64 outsold the Speccy, and please explain why you do not class : >countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' : >you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not : : Yeah, we kicked your ass in 1776 and again in 1812, so there. What's portugal got to do with revolutions in america? -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "I'm alive!!! I can touch! I can taste! | |Andrew Halliwell | I can SMELL!!! KRYTEN!!! Unpack Rachel and | |Principal subjects in:- | get out the puncture repair kit!" | |Comp Sci & Electronics | Arnold Judas Rimmer- Red Dwarf | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:08 CDT 1997 Article: 68415 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsgate.unisource.nl!fido.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Jason Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 21:06:48 GMT Organization: Cosine Systems Distribution: world Message-ID: <9706022106.AA00fwt@cosine.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mc4hd$gsc$10@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> X-Mail2News-User: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-1.mail.demon.net!gate.demon.co.uk!cosine.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [AMIGA 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Lines: 27 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38985 comp.sys.cbm:68415 comp.emulators.cbm:20931 Spike: > Are you talking NOW????? In THIS DAY and AGE???? > You appear to be talking in present tense! > What planet are you living on, if youthink people on this side of the pond > use TAPE drives???? About ten percent of our Commodore Zone covermounts are on tape. There are less users, but a *lot* of people still do. Not "real" users like us, people who actively *do* things, but games players who stuck with the C64 because they couldn't afford/be bothered with anything else. It's something I'd like to see killed off, but people still get in touch with most of the developers (Jon Wells, XL-C-US and so forth) wanting tape versions of their products and I still get customers in the shop where I work looking at the tape stuff on the shelf. I spent *ages* getting the diskmenu on the Shoot Em Up Destruction Set going *just* right, and hardly any bugger *saw* it! =-( -- Jason =-) _______________________________________________________________________ TMR / / / / / / / /\ / /__/ / / /__/ / / / /__/ Email: tmr@cosine.demon.co.uk / / / /\_/ / /__ / / / / __// Cosine Homepage: / / / /__/ / / / / / / / / / http://www.cosine.demon.co.uk / / /_____/_____/_____/__/__/__/_____/_____________________________________/ / \_____\_____\_____\__\__\__\_____\_____________________________________\/ From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:04:11 CDT 1997 Article: 68422 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: 3 Jun 1997 00:04:33 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5mvn2h$shs@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mc4hd$gsc$10@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <9706022106.AA00fwt@cosine.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38994 comp.sys.cbm:68422 comp.emulators.cbm:20940 In article <9706022106.AA00fwt@cosine.demon.co.uk>, Jason wrote: >Spike wrote: [Concerning Judd's comment] >> Are you talking NOW????? In THIS DAY and AGE???? >> You appear to be talking in present tense! >> What planet are you living on, if youthink people on this side of the pond >> use TAPE drives???? There are people, right now, in this so-called discussion, who seem to feel that a tape drive was actually _better_ than a disk drive when dealing with the C-64 or other 8-bits (or at least as capable as a disk drive), and that games and other programs can run equally well off of either, i.e. that a disk drive offers no practical advantage. Those people are not unique. >I spent *ages* getting the diskmenu on the Shoot Em Up Destruction Set >going *just* right, and hardly any bugger *saw* it! =-( Bummer! -S >Jason =-) From albrecht@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Wed Jun 4 17:04:19 CDT 1997 Article: 68603 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!mongol.sasknet.sk.ca!dragon.sk.sympatico.ca!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca!albrecht From: "Alvin R. Albrecht" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Three if by network... (Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:53:16 -0600 Organization: Calgary Free-Net Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5n23on$g44@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5matra$4qh@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mc4hd$gsc$10@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <9706022106.AA00fwt@cosine.demon.co.uk> <5mvn2h$shs@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: albrecht@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <5mvn2h$shs@news.acns.nwu.edu> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39130 comp.sys.cbm:68603 comp.emulators.cbm:21050 On 3 Jun 1997, Stephen Judd wrote: > There are people, right now, in this so-called discussion, who seem to > feel that a tape drive was actually _better_ than a disk drive when dealing > with the C-64 or other 8-bits (or at least as capable as a disk drive), > and that games and other programs can run equally well off of either, > i.e. that a disk drive offers no practical advantage. Absolutely not. But a C64 disk drive that took as long as my cassette recorder to load data does not appear to have any advantage over a tape drive that runs faster than my cassette recorder. And because of this slowness, the tape drive appeared to be as random access as the disk drive. Admittedly, it wasn't as reliable a medium. I know full well that the speed problem on the disk drive was later solved, so no need to post that here. The memory restriction ( on most software - some did do tape multiloads) generated some very talented software writers. I am still amazed at what they managed to pack into 48k (41 and a bit if not including the display file), including full screen scrolling of detailed background in arcade conversions like Green Beret. Alvin From laner@edge.net Wed Jun 4 17:04:24 CDT 1997 Article: 68008 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.0.68.3!news.edge.net!news From: Lane Todd Denson Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:31:02 -0600 Organization: EdgeNet Media Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3389F306.5B86@edge.net> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: laner@edge.net NNTP-Posting-Host: ipt049.nash.edge.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-E-KIT (Win95; U) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38418 comp.sys.cbm:68008 comp.emulators.cbm:20591 > >And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. > > Absolute utter crap. Please list every single country where the > 64 outsold the Speccy, and please explain why you do not class > countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' > you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not > drop the 'free' bit entirely and we'll ask the East Europeans > and Russians which 8-bit machine was more successful, eh? But the real question is, who really cares about sales of 15-year old technology? I love the C64, but I could care less if it sold 1 unit or a million. -- If olive oil comes from olives, and peanut oil comes from peanuts, where do we get baby oil from? Lane Todd Denson (laner@edge.net) http://ltd.simplenet.com From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:28 CDT 1997 Article: 68010 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 17:21:28 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 28 Message-ID: <1053.7086T1041T1408@airtime.co.uk> References: <3389F306.5B86@edge.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan21.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38423 comp.sys.cbm:68010 comp.emulators.cbm:20593 On 27-May-97 Lane Todd Denson wrote: >> >And sold far less everywhere else in the free world. >> >> Absolute utter crap. Please list every single country where the >> 64 outsold the Speccy, and please explain why you do not class >> countries such as Portugal as being in this lovely 'free world' >> you Yanks are always on about. And while you're at it, why not >> drop the 'free' bit entirely and we'll ask the East Europeans >> and Russians which 8-bit machine was more successful, eh? >But the real question is, who really cares about sales of 15-year old >technology? I love the C64, but I could care less if it sold 1 unit or >a million. Actually, it's a simple equation: More sales = more software = more titles available now in the archives. Look at the amount of s/w available for the BBC and Amstrad CPC - which both sold far fewer than either C64 or Spectrums, and you will see what I mean. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 17:04:31 CDT 1997 Article: 68019 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:02:04 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 21 Message-ID: <338B2FAC.4332@adm.hioslo.no> References: <3389F306.5B86@edge.net> <1053.7086T1041T1408@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38448 comp.sys.cbm:68019 comp.emulators.cbm:20602 Bill Hoggett wrote: > > More sales = more software = more titles available now in the archives. > > Look at the amount of s/w available for the BBC and Amstrad CPC - which > both sold far fewer than either C64 or Spectrums, and you will see what > I mean. I have just burned a CDROM with 8-bit software download from Internet. All files ZIPPED: Amstrad CPC: 154 MB BBC: 53MB As you understand, the amount of games shouldnt be a problem on the BBC or the Amstrad CPC. --- Ivar Fiske From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:33 CDT 1997 Article: 67947 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!rutgers.rutgers.edu!news.columbia.edu!panix!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!158.43.192.17!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 28 May 97 11:22:32 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 29 Message-ID: <797.7087T682T1640@airtime.co.uk> References: <338B2FAC.4332@adm.hioslo.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan27.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38384 comp.sys.cbm:67947 comp.emulators.cbm:20523 On 28-May-97 Ivar Fiske wrote: >Bill Hoggett wrote: >> >> More sales = more software = more titles available now in the archives. >> >> Look at the amount of s/w available for the BBC and Amstrad CPC - which >> both sold far fewer than either C64 or Spectrums, and you will see what >> I mean. >I have just burned a CDROM with 8-bit software download from Internet. >All files ZIPPED: >Amstrad CPC: 154 MB >BBC: 53MB >As you understand, the amount of games shouldnt be a problem on the BBC >or the Amstrad CPC. Small fry compared to the C64 and Speccy software also available on the Net, which was the only point I was trying to make. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 17:04:35 CDT 1997 Article: 67890 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.uio.no!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:11:20 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 30 Message-ID: <338C20E8.895@adm.hioslo.no> References: <338B2FAC.4332@adm.hioslo.no> <797.7087T682T1640@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38283 comp.sys.cbm:67890 comp.emulators.cbm:20476 Bill Hoggett wrote: > > On 28-May-97 Ivar Fiske wrote: > > >Bill Hoggett wrote: > > >> > >> More sales = more software = more titles available now in the archives. > >> > >> Look at the amount of s/w available for the BBC and Amstrad CPC - which > >> both sold far fewer than either C64 or Spectrums, and you will see what > >> I mean. > > >I have just burned a CDROM with 8-bit software download from Internet. > > >All files ZIPPED: > > >Amstrad CPC: 154 MB > >BBC: 53MB > > >As you understand, the amount of games shouldnt be a problem on the BBC > >or the Amstrad CPC. > > Small fry compared to the C64 and Speccy software also available on the Net, > which was the only point I was trying to make. My point is that the number of games shouldn't be a problem on the Amstrad CPC or the BBC. --- Ivar Fiske From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:37 CDT 1997 Article: 67928 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!rutgers.rutgers.edu!news.columbia.edu!psinntp!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:48:12 GMT Message-ID: <339547d4.3278544@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <3389F306.5B86@edge.net> <1053.7086T1041T1408@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38339 comp.sys.cbm:67928 comp.emulators.cbm:20502 hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote: >Actually, it's a simple equation: > >More sales = more software = more titles available now in the archives. > >Look at the amount of s/w available for the BBC and Amstrad CPC - which >both sold far fewer than either C64 or Spectrums, and you will see what >I mean. Yeah..just look at the PC...especially the emulator scene.. Rob. From commodoreboy@cybermail.net Wed Jun 4 17:04:40 CDT 1997 Article: 68276 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!prodigy.com!not-for-mail From: "§ÝñTaX èRrðR" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 1 Jun 1997 08:42:03 GMT Organization: Cardogian Software Lines: 9 Message-ID: <01bc6e67$977d7640$7bc348a6@default> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <3389c30b.1552192@news.demon.co.uk> <3389F306.5B86@edge.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip166-72-195-123.fl.us.ibm.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38823 comp.sys.cbm:68276 comp.emulators.cbm:20832 Ok, who really gives a damn about a Spectrum. We all know that the C64c is the Best computer in existance. Why do you people keep going on about that retarted type of computer (Spectrum). -- LONG LIVE THE COMMODORE 64!! http://www.cybermail.net/~cgi +====================================================================+ + I am Homer of Borg.... prepare to be assim... oooo... Donuts... + +====================================================================+ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:43 CDT 1997 Article: 67796 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 05:05:37 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a5b$8f997ba0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 49 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38172 comp.sys.cbm:67796 comp.emulators.cbm:20389 The Starglider wrote in article ... > In article <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes > >Another expert speaks! > > > >In article , > >The Starglider wrote: > >>In article <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk>, Damien Burke > >> writes > I don't know ANYONE who still uses a C64! But when retro gaming comes up > in conversation in pubs etc... everyone mentions games like JSW, Knight > Lore, Sabre Wulf, and how they "must really dig out their speccies from > the attic and play them again" (No!!! You'll set off the attic bug!!!) That's cos the speccy was *much* more lovable :-) BTW, better an easily fixed attic bug than an uncollectable object (as in the C64 version) > That's right mate, it's called the truth. Was the C64 maker knighted > because of his efforts in pushing Computer technology forward? Um... > er... what was the C64's creators name anyway? Well it was, erm, ah, a blind monkey prehaps. ;-) > >If you really don't understand the reasons, then I suggest that you > >do a little research on the subject: visit some web sites, get ahold > >of a 64, use a variety of programs on it, and try programming it. > > > >You might be amazed at just what can't be done on a 64. Especially if you can wait for it to load something. ;-) > > -S ( http://stratus.esam.nwu.edu/~judd/fridge ) > I had a C64... for about a week, took it back to the shop, said it > didn't work and got a speccy instead. That was the best decision I ever > made in my life! > -- I had one for three weeks, and then chucked it in the bin. What a pile of crap. Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:45 CDT 1997 Article: 67836 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 10:03:45 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 45 Message-ID: <1605.7086T603T2262@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a5b$8f997ba0$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38223 comp.sys.cbm:67836 comp.emulators.cbm:20425 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >The Starglider wrote in article >... >> That's right mate, it's called the truth. Was the C64 maker knighted >> because of his efforts in pushing Computer technology forward? Um... >> er... what was the C64's creators name anyway? >Well it was, erm, ah, a blind monkey prehaps. ;-) Actually, Sir Clive received a British award for a British achievement, mainly seen as due to the ZX-81 rather than the Speccy. The C64 creator(s), faceless Americans no doubt, wouldn't have been honoured in this manner anyway - being foreigners . Besides, Sir Clive also created the C5... >> >If you really don't understand the reasons, then I suggest that you >> >do a little research on the subject: visit some web sites, get ahold >> >of a 64, use a variety of programs on it, and try programming it. >> > >> >You might be amazed at just what can't be done on a 64. >Especially if you can wait for it to load something. ;-) Only for the basic loader. Turbo loaders sorted out that problem. >> > -S ( http://stratus.esam.nwu.edu/~judd/fridge ) >> I had a C64... for about a week, took it back to the shop, said it >> didn't work and got a speccy instead. That was the best decision I ever >> made in my life! >> -- >I had one for three weeks, and then chucked it in the bin. What a pile of >crap. Ah, clearly an expert opinion then. :-) --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From ezrider@saqnet.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:04:47 CDT 1997 Article: 68036 of comp.sys.cbm From: ezrider@saqnet.co.uk (Pablo Contreras) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 04:38:53 GMT Organization: SaqNet Reply-To: ezrider@saqnet.co.uk Message-ID: <338bb612.3091393@news.saqnet.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com><338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6a5b$8f997ba0$04b8de8b@w9622136> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.88.73.58 Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!backpost.satin.net!news.saqnet.co.uk!194.88.73.58 Lines: 15 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38490 comp.sys.cbm:68036 comp.emulators.cbm:20619 On 27 May 1997 05:05:37 GMT, "Andrew Cadley" wrote: > [snip comments about the C64] > >I had one for three weeks, and then chucked it in the bin. What a pile of >crap. > >Andy Yeah i had one for about that long as well! Pablo. http://www.ezrider.co.uk From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:04:53 CDT 1997 Article: 67940 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 03:46:37 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5mliit$m6u@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38366 comp.sys.cbm:67940 comp.emulators.cbm:20511 In article , The Starglider wrote: >In article <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu>, Stephen Judd > writes >>Another expert speaks! >> >I'm sorry, but I do have good friends in the computer games business, >and they stated that computers can only ADD. Computers can also multiply and divide by two, and they can also read and write memory. >>>And let's see a C64 do some cutting edge shaded vectors. >> >>Let's see Polygonamy. >> >We have, and the spectrum wins that one hands down. In that case, what is the name of the Spectrum program I should look at and where can I download it? (Or have you actually ever looked at Polygonamy, or know what it is?) >I have an ass AND a brain - what's your excuse? The difference is that I do not use the two interchangably. >So, taking away the video RAM, how much memory did the C64 have? >Honestly now... For what type of video? Text? Bitmap? Redefined character set? Sprites? Multicolor bitmap? How about a double buffer? (Can the Spectrum do double buffering?) >I had a C64... for about a week, took it back to the shop, said it >didn't work and got a speccy instead. That was the best decision I ever Well, that would explain your seemingly bottomless well of ignorance concerning the machine. -S From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:04:56 CDT 1997 Article: 67939 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 03:38:55 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 119 Message-ID: <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38360 comp.sys.cbm:67939 comp.emulators.cbm:20510 In article , Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > > >On 25 May 1997, Stephen Judd wrote: > >> >In actual fact, a computer can only "ADD", the rest of the >> >multiplication etc... are done by clever use of the carry flags. > >> There are several ways to do multiplication. Repeatedly adding a number >> to itself is the worst way. There is nothing clever done with the >> carry flag; shift and add routines work in a very straightforward way. >> The fastest routines use tables in a clever way. > >When you shift a register, where does the extra bit go? The carry flag? >When you decide whether to add in the multiplicand to the running product, >what do you test? The carry flag? Perhaps I need to start underlining my words. Any competent 6510 programmer would call this an obvious use of the shift flag, not a clever use of the same. Actually any competent 6510 programmer who was interested in speed would abandon shift and add algorithms altogether. If you are interested in how modern chips do divisions, there is an article in a recent Siam Journal of Applied Mathematics on the Pentium FDIV bug -- as I recall, it amounted to a slightly incorrect number in a table. Now, back to chips. Since you (or whoever it was) never bothered to show me the simple comparison code between a Z80 and a 6510, I went and did a little research. As near as I can tell, the typical cycle count for a load or a store is around 7 cycles. On a 6510 it is 4. So, far, the Z80 seems around a factor of two slower (so that a 4MHz Z80 would indeed be faster). Then it became apparent to me that there is no kind of indexed mode. On a 6510, you can do an instruction like LDA $C000,X which will load the accumulator with ($C000+X), where X=register. All of the major instructions (load, add, subtract, or, eor, and) have this type of addressing mode, which takes 4 cycles (5 if a page boundary is crossed). The analogous Z80 isntruction seems to be ADD A,(HL) again, a 7-cycle instruction. Of course, on a 6510 this mode is used for all sorts of stuff, like drawing lines. To move to the next memory location, all that is required is an INX which takes 2 cycles. On the other hand, INC (HL) takes a rather large 11 cycles -- now we're up to a factor of five speed difference. The kicker, though, are the PC-relative instructions JR cond,e which take a whopping 12/7 cycles, and only test for Carry and Zero flags. On a 6510 the negative flag (high bit) may also be used as a branch condition; the instruction takes 3 cycles if the branch is taken, and 2 otherwise. Finally, the ROR type instructions are a factor of four faster on the 6510 (when dealing with the accumulator). So, what does this tell me? Not too much. If I was writing for a Z80, I would certainly write to its strengths and try to avoid its weaknesses, like I do on the 6510. But I would postulate that a Z80 is more than a factor of two slower than a 6510, and probably much closer to a factor of three on average. For doing raw calculations I would therefore expect a stock Spectrum to beat a stock 6510 easily, but of course any type of data (i.e. graphical) manipulation will slow down the computer by quite a lot. >If you want to be honest, nobody in everyday life needs more than an 8bit >machine to get day to day tasks done. Agreed! (Nobody->Most people) >> The RAM of a C64 is more like 64k. In addition to the RAM, there are >> two ROM chips, each of which is 8k. The I/O chips take up 4k. A >> cartridge can use all 64k. Any other program can use the 60k not >> occupied by the I/O chips, in addition to the ROMs. > >Are you leaving out the amount of memory taken by the display on purpose? It depends on what is being displayed. >I wouldn't refer to a C64 disk drive as a liberator from tape drives. >Especially given that it was slower than my cassette recorder. The tape >drives were faster, but admittedly less reliable. There were disk systems The tape drives were infinitely slower and infintely less flexible. >The motivation behind the tape drive was lower cost. The C64 disk drive >was no bargain especially given its performance. The C64 disk drive was the best peripheral I ever purchased for the machine. The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful experience using a 64. >Are you confusing cassette tape with tape drive? Tape drives, though >sequential, are fast enough to appear random access. What happens to the tape when you have thirty files, delete the first, then add two more files? -S From me@nospam.nospam.com Wed Jun 4 17:05:02 CDT 1997 Article: 68091 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!szdc!newsp.zippo.com!snews1 From: me@nospam.nospam.com (Tired of Spam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:22:19 GMT Organization: None Lines: 24 Message-ID: <338e70b0.2196699@snews.zippo.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38602 comp.sys.cbm:68091 comp.emulators.cbm:20671 judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) wrote: >Now, back to chips. Since you (or whoever it was) never bothered to >show me the simple comparison code between a Z80 and a 6510, I went >and did a little research. As near as I can tell, the typical cycle >count for a load or a store is around 7 cycles. On a 6510 it is 4. >So, far, the Z80 seems around a factor of two slower (so that a 4MHz >Z80 would indeed be faster). [...] >So, what does this tell me? Not too much. If I was writing for a Z80, >I would certainly write to its strengths and try to avoid its weaknesses, >like I do on the 6510. But I would postulate that a Z80 is more than >a factor of two slower than a 6510, and probably much closer to a factor >of three on average. For doing raw calculations I would therefore >expect a stock Spectrum to beat a stock 6510 easily, but of course >any type of data (i.e. graphical) manipulation will slow down the >computer by quite a lot. Remember that in the Spectrum, the Z80A doesn't run at 4 mhz, but only at 3.5 Mhz ! See you! From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:06 CDT 1997 Article: 68090 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 15:30:25 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 81 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38601 comp.sys.cbm:68090 comp.emulators.cbm:20670 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article , > Alvin R. Albrecht wrote: > > [ snip a lot of boring crap on multiplication ] > Now, back to chips. Since you (or whoever it was) never bothered to > show me the simple comparison code between a Z80 and a 6510, I went > and did a little research. As near as I can tell, the typical cycle > count for a load or a store is around 7 cycles. On a 6510 it is 4. > So, far, the Z80 seems around a factor of two slower (so that a 4MHz > Z80 would indeed be faster). Congratulations, you've made a sensible start. > Then it became apparent to me that there is no kind of indexed mode. And then made yourself look like a complete and total tit. The Z80 has two index register IX and IY, both of which are 16-bit So you can do: LD E,(IX+4) or whatever > > Finally, the ROR type instructions are a factor of four faster on > the 6510 (when dealing with the accumulator). > Is there somewhere on the net with lists of clock cycles for the 6510 and Z80, I'd like to check some of these figures out? > So, what does this tell me? Not too much. If I was writing for a Z80, > I would certainly write to its strengths and try to avoid its weaknesses, > like I do on the 6510. But I would postulate that a Z80 is more than > a factor of two slower than a 6510, and probably much closer to a factor > of three on average. For doing raw calculations I would therefore > expect a stock Spectrum to beat a stock 6510 easily, but of course > any type of data (i.e. graphical) manipulation will slow down the > computer by quite a lot. Yeah but you're *still* not taking into account the amount of data chuffing a 6510 has to do during real software. A Z80 does less because of it's larger set of general purpose registers and it's complex instruction set. > >If you want to be honest, nobody in everyday life needs more than an 8bit > >machine to get day to day tasks done. > > Agreed! (Nobody->Most people) Well I think I'd disagree if my day to day work involved ray-tracing but otherwise your probably right. :-) . > > The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a > cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful > experience using a 64. > And understood a lot better by CPC owner would could get a decent data transfer rate out of theirs. > >Are you confusing cassette tape with tape drive? Tape drives, though > >sequential, are fast enough to appear random access. > > What happens to the tape when you have thirty files, delete the first, > then add two more files? Well on the ZX microdrive the file was saved, asumming that there was enough room. As far as the user was concerned, the device appeared to be random access. Andy From Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no Wed Jun 4 17:05:08 CDT 1997 Article: 68092 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!uninett.no!not-for-mail From: Ivar Fiske Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:43:51 +0200 Organization: Høgskolen i Oslo Lines: 13 Message-ID: <338EE7A7.6261@adm.hioslo.no> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: Ivar.Fiske@adm.hioslo.no NNTP-Posting-Host: jandavid.p52.hioslo.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38603 comp.sys.cbm:68092 comp.emulators.cbm:20672 comp.sys.amstrad.8bit:6488 Andrew Cadley wrote: > > The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a > > cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful > > experience using a 64. > > > > And understood a lot better by CPC owner would could get a decent data > transfer rate out of theirs. Yes, but the 3" disks were very expensive. You could of course connect a second 5 1/4 as a second drive. --- Ivar Fiske From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:11 CDT 1997 Article: 68093 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm,comp.sys.amstrad.8bit Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 15:52:36 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d11$6f04fa00$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338EE7A7.6261@adm.hioslo.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 20 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38604 comp.sys.cbm:68093 comp.emulators.cbm:20673 comp.sys.amstrad.8bit:6490 Ivar Fiske wrote in article <338EE7A7.6261@adm.hioslo.no>... > Andrew Cadley wrote: > > > The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a > > > cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful > > > experience using a 64. > > And understood a lot better by CPC owner would could get a decent data > > transfer rate out of theirs. > Yes, but the 3" disks were very expensive. You could of course connect a > second 5 1/4 as a second drive. > Or more sensibly, a 3.5" drive. Though I'd rather expensive 3" discs than *slow* C64 drives. Andy From sjudd@nwu.edu Wed Jun 4 17:05:14 CDT 1997 Article: 68100 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!merle!judd From: judd@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 17:54:16 GMT Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL Lines: 133 Message-ID: <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: sjudd@nwu.edu (Stephen Judd) NNTP-Posting-Host: merle.acns.nwu.edu Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38612 comp.sys.cbm:68100 comp.emulators.cbm:20681 In article <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136>, Andrew Cadley wrote: >Stephen Judd wrote in article ><5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > >[ snip a lot of boring crap on multiplication ] [Which happened to discuss how multiplication actually works, and how any sane programmer would implement same, with lots of information and references for anyone motivated enough to learn about the actual issues involved] >> Then it became apparent to me that there is no kind of indexed mode. > >And then made yourself look like a complete and total tit. Perhaps. Even if so, I live my life on a breast, and compared with me, everyone else sucks. I can live with that. >The Z80 has two index register IX and IY, both of which are 16-bit > >So you can do: > >LD E,(IX+4) or whatever Certainly, at a cost of 19 cycles, 10 cycles for an INC/DEC, and 19 cycles for any adds or subtracts. Since the (HL) instructions were only 7 cycles, I assumed that any sane programmer interested in speed would use them for indexing. If you really want to fix on IX type instructions for comparisons, your Z80 is now a factor of five slower than my 6510. Moreover, you can only index a byte off of them. The example I gave, in case you forgot it, was LDA $C000,X which takes 4 cycles. Of course, there is also zero-page indirect addressing as well, LDA ($FA),Y which adds Y to the 16-bit address in $FA/$FB, and loads the result into .A, at a cost of 5 cycles (6 if page boundary is crossed). Note that of course a simple INC $FA (three cycles) or self-modifying code is used when doing e.g. memory transfers (or drawing lines, for that matter). The point being that the Z80 does not have any sort of indexed mode [comparable to the 6510 modes][of value]. >> Finally, the ROR type instructions are a factor of four faster on >> the 6510 (when dealing with the accumulator). >> > >Is there somewhere on the net with lists of clock cycles for the 6510 and >Z80, I'd like to check some of these figures out? There are many places, and they are easy to find. I used Joukko Valta's homepage: http://stekt.oulu.fi/~jopi/cbm/ What is more striking to me about your comment is that you seem unfamiliar with Z80 timing. I find knowing cycles timings crucial for desigining efficient algorithms. I'm not talking so much about counting and optimizing every single cycle, but rather making informed decisions when designing algorithms as to the type of approach I will take. >Yeah but you're *still* not taking into account the amount of data chuffing >a 6510 has to do during real software. A Z80 does less because of it's >larger set of general purpose registers and it's complex instruction set. I am talking merely about cycles. I don't recall talking about anything else. For accomplishing the kinds of tasks that I write, a Z80 seems to be far more inefficient. As to comments like "Well a 6510 has to shuffle data that a Z80 could do in 16 bits", you could just as well say that a Z80 has to carry along all this 16-bit baggage when all you want to do is an 8-bit calculation. I think that if you had any programming experience on 6510s you might be able to make a more educated judgement on the matter. The Z80 seems to have some nice instructions and features that I wouldn't mind having on a 6510 (but have on a 65816 actually), but the reverse is also true, and the Z80 seems to go about some things in a very cumbersome way. Any sane programmer I'm sure takes advantage of the strengths and avoids the weaknesses of each. The only meaningful comparisons, at best, are classes of routines. For instance, on a 64 I can do an 8-bit multiply (16-bit result) in something like 34 cycles. I can draw lines at a rate of 20-30 cycles per pixel (including the plot of course). How long do these routines take on a Spectrum? (Neither of those routines involve loop unrolls and such). Also, just out of curiosity, how long does it take to store to graphics memory? Do you have to access it as a port? Many people were asserting that the computer can do 3D graphics faster because it can do calculations faster, but I find that the vast majority of time is spent in doing the graphics. The calculations are trivial. If you would like to know a genuine fact about the 64, it's that the memory layout for bitmaps is fairly cumbersome for doing many graphical manipulations. (Luckily, of course, the 64 programmer has more options than a straight bitmap). Actually the memory layout really blows; that's the one thing I wish the designers had done differently. >> >If you want to be honest, nobody in everyday life needs more than an >8bit >> >machine to get day to day tasks done. >> >> Agreed! (Nobody->Most people) > >Well I think I'd disagree if my day to day work involved ray-tracing but >otherwise your probably right. :-) What, your crappy Spectrum word-processors don't even support ray-tracing? How do they draw the letters, in 2D??? >> The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a >> cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful >> experience using a 64. > >And understood a lot better by CPC owner would could get a decent data >transfer rate out of theirs. One of the understandings being that there is more to life than a transfer rate -- a numerical quantity more useful for marketing than anything else. (Well, and meaningless 8-bit argument type comparisons). evetS- From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:16 CDT 1997 Article: 68108 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 30 May 1997 18:54:29 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6d2a$d755a6e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 129 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38625 comp.sys.cbm:68108 comp.emulators.cbm:20690 Stephen Judd wrote in article <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > In article <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136>, > Andrew Cadley wrote: > >Stephen Judd wrote in article > ><5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu>... > > > Certainly, at a cost of 19 cycles, 10 cycles for an INC/DEC, and > 19 cycles for any adds or subtracts. Since the (HL) instructions > were only 7 cycles, I assumed that any sane programmer interested > in speed would use them for indexing. If you really want to fix > on IX type instructions for comparisons, your Z80 is now a factor > of five slower than my 6510. > Iu never said that they were very fast or used in speed critical programs, just that they *were* there. > >Is there somewhere on the net with lists of clock cycles for the 6510 and > >Z80, I'd like to check some of these figures out? > > There are many places, and they are easy to find. I used Joukko Valta's > homepage: > > http://stekt.oulu.fi/~jopi/cbm/ > Thank you I'll go look. > What is more striking to me about your comment is that you seem > unfamiliar with Z80 timing. I find knowing cycles timings crucial > for desigining efficient algorithms. I'm not talking so much about > counting and optimizing every single cycle, but rather making > informed decisions when designing algorithms as to the type of > approach I will take. So do I, but it's been a while since I did any Z80. Since I'm at Uni and doing lots of C++ and stuff I didn't bother to bring my little book on Z80 which contains cycle times and to top it all off, it's slighty different on the Amstrad CPC because of the way the VGA accesses memory, creating the strange concept of NOP cycles. Strangely though I did bring my C64 manual, I think it got caught up in all the junk I had. Spooky. > >Yeah but you're *still* not taking into account the amount of data chuffing > >a 6510 has to do during real software. A Z80 does less because of it's > >larger set of general purpose registers and it's complex instruction set. > > I am talking merely about cycles. I don't recall talking about anything > else. For accomplishing the kinds of tasks that I write, a Z80 seems to > be far more inefficient. 6510 enthusiasts always try to get out of this one. You have to consider the fact that the Z80 has a faster clock (thus affecting cycle time) and more internal registers which can be used for a temporary storage space. > As to comments like "Well a 6510 has to shuffle data that a Z80 could do > in 16 bits", you could just as well say that a Z80 has to carry along > all this 16-bit baggage when all you want to do is an 8-bit calculation. A Z80 can chuff data in 8 bits as well so that doesn't really apply. > I think that if you had any programming experience on 6510s you might be > able to make a more educated judgement on the matter. I have, it's crap. > The Z80 seems to have some nice instructions and features that I wouldn't > mind having on a 6510 (but have on a 65816 actually), but the reverse > is also true, and the Z80 seems to go about some things in a very > cumbersome way. Any sane programmer I'm sure takes advantage of the > strengths and avoids the weaknesses of each. I don't think there's much on a 6502 that you can't do on a Z80. > The only meaningful comparisons, at best, are classes of routines. Congratulations, that's the point I was trying to make about having more registers etc. Just to re-mphaise the point, you should remember that 1 6502 cycle = roughly 3.5 Z80 cycles. > Also, just out of curiosity, how long does it take to store to graphics > memory? Do you have to access it as a port? Many people were asserting > that the computer can do 3D graphics faster because it can do calculations > faster, but I find that the vast majority of time is spent in doing > the graphics. The calculations are trivial. On all Z80 computers I've used the graphics display is memory mapped. So on the speccy you can change 8 pixels by writing a single byte. On the CPC it's either 8,4 or 2 pixels depending on the screen mode. > If you would like to know a genuine fact about the 64, it's that the > memory layout for bitmaps is fairly cumbersome for doing many > graphical manipulations. (Luckily, of course, the 64 programmer > has more options than a straight bitmap). Actually the memory layout > really blows; that's the one thing I wish the designers had done > differently. Well the speccy's has a bit of an odd, hardware orientated layout as well. The CPC's is better, but still a little bit wonky. I agree about the 64 though. A straight bitmap is only really useful for static pictures, but if you had a faster processor .... > >> The advantages of a disk drive over a tape drive (and especially a > >> cassette tape) are very well understood by anyone with meaningful > >> experience using a 64. > > > >And understood a lot better by CPC owner would could get a decent data > >transfer rate out of theirs. > > One of the understandings being that there is more to life than a > transfer rate -- a numerical quantity more useful for marketing than > anything else. (Well, and meaningless 8-bit argument type comparisons). Is that prehaps a dig at their wonky 3" discs? Well yes, they were a bit crap, they did however operate at a decent speed, unlike the 1541. :-) Andy From NOSPAM@mindspring.com Wed Jun 4 17:05:23 CDT 1997 Article: 68176 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mindspring!usenet From: Radioactive Warrior Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 07:32:37 +0000 Organization: replace with for reply... Lines: 34 Message-ID: <338FD415.629F@mindspring.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2a$d755a6e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> Reply-To: NOSPAM@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbmu8.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 31 May 1997 11:24:41 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38740 comp.sys.cbm:68176 comp.emulators.cbm:20756 Andrew Cadley wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote, but said nothing... > > I think that if you had any programming experience on 6510s you might be > > able to make a more educated judgement on the matter. > > I have, it's crap. > > > The Z80 seems to have some nice instructions and features that I wouldn't > > mind having on a 6510 (but have on a 65816 actually), but the reverse > > is also true, and the Z80 seems to go about some things in a very > > cumbersome way. Any sane programmer I'm sure takes advantage of the > > strengths and avoids the weaknesses of each. > > I don't think there's much on a 6502 that you can't do on a Z80. Yes.. You have said this 50 times already!!! At the risk of sounding blunt- QUIT FUCKING A DEAD HORSE! Yes! A nice circle jerk you have going here but stating the same point 50 times doesn't make you right... It makes you look real dumb! I donno if speccy users are just so stupid they need to hear the same argument again and again and again and again......... but c64 users get the idea after the first ten times you state somthing! Andrew Cadley, you are now on my filter list... You have nothing to say (and you speak alot) that I want to hear! I can't beleive you have kept this stupid thread going as long as you have! I can't beleive there are users dumb enough to entertain you with attention. so please, fuck off and die! Thank you, Radioactive Warrior From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:05:27 CDT 1997 Article: 68186 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!europa.clark.net!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 16:05:18 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <33904c10.2497662@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2a$d755a6e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338FD415.629F@mindspring.com> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38746 comp.sys.cbm:68186 comp.emulators.cbm:20762 On Sat, 31 May 1997 07:32:37 +0000, Radioactive Warrior wrote: [A load of abuse] Touchy type, aren't you. You're on a few filter lists yourself by now, I would have thought. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:29 CDT 1997 Article: 68197 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!raiden.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: russ_j@raiden.demon.co.uk (Russ Juckes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:19:11 BST Organization: Under the megatree Message-ID: References: <5mn488$d1p@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d2a$d755a6e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <338FD415.629F@mindspring.com> <33904c10.2497662@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: raiden.demon.co.uk [158.152.191.228] X-Newsreader: Offlite 0.09 / Termite Internet for Acorn RISC OS Lines: 19 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38761 comp.sys.cbm:68197 comp.emulators.cbm:20773 damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) wrote: > Touchy type, aren't you. You're on a few filter lists yourself by now, I > would have thought. Radioactive Warrior isn't on my kill file. I think it's refreshing to read complete lunacy, and blind obsession every now and again, mixed in with ignorance and rudeness, just to remind me how easy it is to see only one side of a coin, if you're not careful. I think the C=64 has some great stuff going for it, but I'll be rude to Radioactive Wazzier, and belittle his posts because he's rude personally himself, and doesn't deserve any respect. -- "My God... It's full of stars..." russ_j@edgemail.ha1.com http://www.raiden.demon.co.uk From me@here.com Wed Jun 4 17:05:32 CDT 1997 Article: 68216 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!szdc!newsp.zippo.com!snews1 From: me@here.com (I hate Spam) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:56:22 GMT Organization: None Lines: 11 Message-ID: <33906472.1640846@snews.zippo.com> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5maa2u$prl@news.acns.nwu.edu> <5mli4f$m48@news.acns.nwu.edu> <01bc6d0e$5611ad20$04b8de8b@w9622136> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38786 comp.sys.cbm:68216 comp.emulators.cbm:20786 "Andrew Cadley" wrote: >Well on the ZX microdrive the file was saved, asumming that there was >enough room. As far as the user was concerned, the device appeared to be >random access. How many bytes of the Spectrum's memory does the microdrive use ? I remember that it was a big problem... if you use a microdrive... it eates memory and you can't run lots of software. C ya! From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:36 CDT 1997 Article: 67746 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!feed2.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 26 May 97 17:58:47 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 101 Message-ID: <3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan23.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38104 comp.sys.cbm:67746 comp.emulators.cbm:20335 On 25-May-97 The Starglider wrote: >In article <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk>, Damien Burke > writes >>I don't know why I'm bothering, but here we go... >> >>On Sun, 25 May 1997 05:28:07 GMT, >>c64fan@commodore.rulez.the.world (A Commodore 64 fan) wrote: >> >>>You have to use a lot of computer power in order to emulate them, it's >>>not just "adding & multiplying" as you say. >> >>Strike me dead if I'm wrong, but isn't "just" adding & >>multiplying all a computer really does? >> >In actual fact, a computer can only "ADD", the rest of the >multiplication etc... are done by clever use of the carry flags How true. Computers are *really* dumb, when you get right down to it. :) They are quite fast at being dumb though. >>>Yeah, emulate sprites in a Spectrum :) >> >>Yes. Try playing some Speccy games. >> >And let's see a C64 do some cutting edge shaded vectors. That's not it's strong point, just as sprites aren't the Spectrum's forte, whatever you guys say. Each machine does some things better than the other. >>>You'll always have that awful color mixing, because you can't have >>>more than 2 colors (ink and paper) in the same 8*8 square. >> >>Wrong. Never seen any rainbow processor stuff, have you? All >>done in *software* of course. >> >The spectrum made up for the colour problem because of the lower >resolution of the C64. The speccy could do some VERY detailed graphics. >That's how Jack the Ripper got an 18 Certificate. I don't know that the higher resolution "made up" for the colour problem, as you put it. It's just one of those things the Spectrum is better at, just as colour is handled better on the C64. >>>The spectrum can't do by software lots of things that the C64 can do >>>by hardware... so your point does not apply. >> >>And the 64 can't do by hardware many *more* things a Speccy can >>do by software. >The C64 would be useless as anything else BECAUSE of it's hardware. That >was it's downfall, as the C64 could not be used for anything BUT a games >machine. A bad move by commodore cutting corners. True, Commodore made lots of mistakes, but I don't regard the Speccy as any more useful other than a games machine either. >>>And remember that the spectrum has only 48K, >> >>Or 128K. >> >And the 48K had more than the C64, which was 64K INCLUDING THE ROM. The >RAM of a C64 is more like 32K. According to an old book I have, all 48k machines were really 64k ones, with the only difference being the amount the programmer can access for his/hers own use. That's why you could access 50K on the Apple II if you removed the high res gfx and DOS. If my information is correct, you could access about 40K of RAM on a Speccy. This more than you could access on the C64 _in BASIC mode_, about 38K. However, the C64 also allowed you a further 22K accessible through machine code only. Let's leave the 128 Speccys and C128 out of this. >>>Most games that are incredible in the C64, are very bad done in the >>>Spectrum, look at Green Beret for example. >> >>An excellent *game* on both machines. The MSX version's graphics >>are better than the Speccy's, but the game itself is crap. Your >>point? >Anyway, look at Starglider! Or was about Our Quazatron to the C64 >version (which was a different name that I can't remember!), but it was >a top-down view. Look, the C64 had more colours and a good sound chip to >it's benefit, but they pale in comparison to the fact that the spectrum >was a more flexible, easier machine, and THAT'S why they sold more in >the UK. That might be true. Of course, the fact that the Speccy was also considerably cheaper (even the software was cheaper) might have a lot to do with it. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:40 CDT 1997 Article: 67813 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!earl.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 06:53:32 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a6a$a3b8b4c0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 64 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38192 comp.sys.cbm:67813 comp.emulators.cbm:20400 Bill Hoggett wrote in article <3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk>... > On 25-May-97 The Starglider wrote: > > >In article <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk>, Damien Burke > > writes > > >>I don't know why I'm bothering, but here we go... > >> > >>On Sun, 25 May 1997 05:28:07 GMT, > >>c64fan@commodore.rulez.the.world (A Commodore 64 fan) wrote: > >The spectrum made up for the colour problem because of the lower > >resolution of the C64. The speccy could do some VERY detailed graphics. > >That's how Jack the Ripper got an 18 Certificate. > > I don't know that the higher resolution "made up" for the colour problem, > as you put it. It's just one of those things the Spectrum is better at, > just as colour is handled better on the C64. > And better still by Amstrad marvy little CPC range. > >The C64 would be useless as anything else BECAUSE of it's hardware. That > >was it's downfall, as the C64 could not be used for anything BUT a games > >machine. A bad move by commodore cutting corners. > > True, Commodore made lots of mistakes, but I don't regard the Speccy as > any more useful other than a games machine either. > Course CPC owners had *fast* disc drives and better hi-res modes, which is probably why there is *still* software being developed for them. Not to mention the fact that some CPC software, Protext springs to mind, has been succesfully converted to the Amiga and PC. > >>>And remember that the spectrum has only 48K, > >> > >>Or 128K. > >> CPC's could push this up as far as 576K, excluding ROMS. > Let's leave the 128 Speccys and C128 out of this. Only because the Speccy 128 was an improvement, wheras the C128 was a disappointment. :-) > That might be true. Of course, the fact that the Speccy was also considerably > cheaper (even the software was cheaper) might have a lot to do with it. Speccy games on cassette cost *exactly* the same as C64 cassettes so that's another silly argument. Andy -- Who seems to be defending the CPC viewpoint, despite being a die hard ZX-phile. From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:47 CDT 1997 Article: 67837 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 09:53:29 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1361.7086T593T1474@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a6a$a3b8b4c0$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan25.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38224 comp.sys.cbm:67837 comp.emulators.cbm:20426 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk>... >> Let's leave the 128 Speccys and C128 out of this. >Only because the Speccy 128 was an improvement, wheras the C128 was a >disappointment. :-) The C128 was actually quite an improvement too, but it was horrendously marketed, being priced way above the mark where C64 owners would consider upgrading. The result was few sales, and as a result, few 128K titles too. >> That might be true. Of course, the fact that the Speccy was also >> considerably >> cheaper (even the software was cheaper) might have a lot to do with it. >Speccy games on cassette cost *exactly* the same as C64 cassettes so that's >another silly argument. Ah, no. Some games *did* cost the same, but the stock price for Speccy games was around the 7.95 UKP mark, whereas the C64 ones usually came in at 9.95 UKP. As time went on the prices became closer, but you only have to look through a few multi-platform computer games magazines of the early to mid-eighties to see that I'm right. Since most of the computers those days were bought by parents for their kids, price most definitely was a factor. --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:50 CDT 1997 Article: 67844 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 11:44:27 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a93$462b2260$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <01bc6a6a$a3b8b4c0$04b8de8b@w9622136> <1361.7086T593T1474@airtime.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 24 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38234 comp.sys.cbm:67844 comp.emulators.cbm:20434 Bill Hoggett wrote in article <1361.7086T593T1474@airtime.co.uk>... > On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: > > >Bill Hoggett wrote in article > ><3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk>... > >Speccy games on cassette cost *exactly* the same as C64 cassettes so that's > >another silly argument. > > Ah, no. Some games *did* cost the same, but the stock price for Speccy > games was around the 7.95 UKP mark, whereas the C64 ones usually came in > at 9.95 UKP. As time went on the prices became closer, but you only have > to look through a few multi-platform computer games magazines of the > early to mid-eighties to see that I'm right. Okay, I admit it. I was only a little kid and my pocket money only stretched as far a budget games (I still love that little egg), which *did* cost the same. IIRC. Andy From hoggett@airtime.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:05:53 CDT 1997 Article: 68009 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!feed1.news.innet.be!INbe.net!blue.news.pipex.net!pipex!stns.news.pipex.net!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.airtime.co.uk!usenet From: hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 97 13:58:51 +0500 Organization: None Specified Lines: 37 Message-ID: <1543.7086T838T2559@airtime.co.uk> References: <01bc6a93$462b2260$04b8de8b@w9622136> NNTP-Posting-Host: rlan21.airtime.co.uk X-Newsreader: THOR 2.3 (Amiga;TCP/IP) *UNREGISTERED* Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38419 comp.sys.cbm:68009 comp.emulators.cbm:20592 On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >Bill Hoggett wrote in article ><1361.7086T593T1474@airtime.co.uk>... >> On 27-May-97 Andrew Cadley wrote: >> >> >Bill Hoggett wrote in article >> ><3855.7085T1078T2387@airtime.co.uk>... >> >Speccy games on cassette cost *exactly* the same as C64 cassettes so >that's >> >another silly argument. >> >> Ah, no. Some games *did* cost the same, but the stock price for Speccy >> games was around the 7.95 UKP mark, whereas the C64 ones usually came in >> at 9.95 UKP. As time went on the prices became closer, but you only have >> to look through a few multi-platform computer games magazines of the >> early to mid-eighties to see that I'm right. >Okay, I admit it. I was only a little kid and my pocket money only >stretched as far a budget games (I still love that little egg), which *did* >cost the same. IIRC. Fair enough, they did. 1.99 and 2.99 UKP to be exact. Wasn't it annoying to buy a full priced game only to see it relesed on a "budget" label eight or ten months later ? Even if the cheap games did lack the nice BIG packaging. I dunno abou the speccy but anyone remember the size of the "Battle for Midway" box by PSS ? Inside ? One tape and a darn thin leaflet supposed to be the manual. I think "Theatre Europe" was the same. Any other ridiculosly big boxes, anyone ? --- Bill Hoggett (aka BeeJay) IF GOD IS LIFE'S SERVICE PROVIDER WHY HAVEN'T I GOT HIS I.P. NUMBER ? From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:05:57 CDT 1997 Article: 68018 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:26:17 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <338f2604.8424164@news.demon.co.uk> References: <01bc6a93$462b2260$04b8de8b@w9622136> <1543.7086T838T2559@airtime.co.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38445 comp.sys.cbm:68018 comp.emulators.cbm:20601 On 27 May 97 13:58:51 +0500, hoggett@airtime.co.uk (Bill Hoggett) wrote: >Fair enough, they did. 1.99 and 2.99 UKP to be exact. Wasn't it annoying >to buy a full priced game only to see it relesed on a "budget" label eight >or ten months later ? Not if you were the type to wait for the budget release ;) >same. Any other ridiculosly big boxes, anyone ? TGSS... ah, memories. Heeuuuurggggghhhh! -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:01 CDT 1997 Article: 68021 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:52:47 GMT Message-ID: <33994977.3697441@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <01bc6a93$462b2260$04b8de8b@w9622136> <1543.7086T838T2559@airtime.co.uk> <338f2604.8424164@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38454 comp.sys.cbm:68021 comp.emulators.cbm:20604 damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) wrote: > >>same. Any other ridiculosly big boxes, anyone ? > >TGSS... ah, memories. Heeuuuurggggghhhh! Colonial Conquest on the ST...very big box for a 1 disk game.. Rob. From natedac@dfw.dfw.net Wed Jun 4 17:06:07 CDT 1997 Article: 67730 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dfw.net!dfw.dfw.net!natedac From: Nate_DAC Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:28:21 -0500 Organization: DFW Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfw.dfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: The Starglider In-Reply-To: Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38088 comp.sys.cbm:67730 comp.emulators.cbm:20317 > was it's downfall, as the C64 could not be used for anything BUT a games > machine. A bad move by commodore cutting corners. I used my 64 for a long time for a lot more than just games. Come to think of it, there was a point where I didn't play any games. Now I use my 128 for the net, a 64 could do this just as well (tho slower). Ok ok so soft80 screens are difficult for some to read, so what. > And Beach Head II, Paperboy and others. Paperboy puts the border stuff so low (or high?) into the border area that I can't read the numbers, they're partially offscreen :) > And the 48K had more than the C64, which was 64K INCLUDING THE ROM. The > RAM of a C64 is more like 32K. Wrong. The C64 has 64K of RAM, 20K of ROMs, and 4K of I/O device space. The ROM's can be banked out (and usually are under any serious program) to reveal the entire 64K are if necessary. the memory map goes something like this: $0000-$00FF Zero Page $0100-$01FF Stack $0200-$03FF System variables for BASIC $0400-$07FF Screen memory for standard 40x25 text, plus some sprite pointers and a few unused bytes $0800-$9FFF About 38K Free RAM, always visible $A000-$BFFF 8K BASIC Rom, or RAM $C000-$CFFF 4K Free RAM, always visible $D000-$DFFF 4K System I/O, or Character ROM, or RAM $E000-$FFFF 8K Kernal ROM, or RAM $FFF0-$FFFF System interrupt vectors, etc. Under this memory map lies a full 64K ram from $0002 to $FFFF. $0000/1 are used for the processor's onboard 7 bit parallel I/O port controls. Every byte of the64K area can be used to program, tho it's not smart to use $0000-$1FFF or $FFF0-$FFFF since these are needed by both the processor and the user program to maintain the system. Even the area used by the screen can have a program running inside it, as is evident in many demos, you see the screen briefly fill with garbage, that'S actually some small program usually to de-pack or uncrunch the demo's data. > >> and the screen is always > >>in the same place in memory. > > > >Not on the 128K ones. Not in the 64 either. There are a few resitrctions, but you can move the screen anywhere you want, with the exception for $1000-$1FFF I believe it is, and another similar area above $8000. Those area conbtain ROM shadows which are only visible to the video chip, the processor still sees RAM in there areas. (Someone correct me on the locations of the character rom shadows in banks 0 and 2 please?) _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/-'-'_/ _/ _/-' _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ natedac@dfw.net -- Specializing in Digital Sound on your Commodore Using BitchX for the IRC Rules!! -- Do *YOU* have the best!? From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:10 CDT 1997 Article: 68335 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 26 May 1997 20:57:09 GMT Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mctf5$ql1$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38886 comp.sys.cbm:68335 comp.emulators.cbm:20876 Nate_DAC (natedac@dfw.dfw.net) wrote: : Even the area used by the screen can have a program running inside it, as : is evident in many demos, you see the screen briefly fill with garbage, : that'S actually some small program usually to de-pack or uncrunch the : demo's data. This trick has been used on the speccy as well.... I remember a game copier that used that to get at the full game RAM without corruption, so you could copy/dissasemble/etc it..... : Not in the 64 either. There are a few resitrctions, but you can move the : screen anywhere you want, with the exception for $1000-$1FFF I believe it : is, and another similar area above $8000. Those area conbtain ROM shadows : which are only visible to the video chip, the processor still sees RAM in : there areas. Just out of curiosity, but why would you WANT to move the screen location? I can understand banking in a different RAM band into the screen to facilitate smoother animation, but what's the point in moving the actual location? -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" | |Andrew Halliwell | | |Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control | |Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:13 CDT 1997 Article: 68378 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 2 Jun 1997 17:02:12 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 19 Message-ID: <01bc6f76$a68e50e0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5mctf5$ql1$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38937 comp.sys.cbm:68378 comp.emulators.cbm:20900 > Just out of curiosity, but why would you WANT to move the screen location? > I can understand banking in a different RAM band into the screen to > facilitate smoother animation, but what's the point in moving the actual > location? > Well I can't speak for the C64 but on the CPC moving the screen had all manner of advantages. For one, it ment you could arrange it so that copying >from ROM/RAM to the screen was easier or to allow more easier access to the ASIC in plus stuff. It also allowed double buffering by switching between two or more displays. Possibly the best use though was to shift it down to $4000 to make it more compatible with speccy code. :-) Andy From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:06:15 CDT 1997 Article: 68386 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:10:54 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <339404c7.831227@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <5mctf5$ql1$3@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38947 comp.sys.cbm:68386 comp.emulators.cbm:20908 On 26 May 1997 20:57:09 GMT, u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) wrote: >Just out of curiosity, but why would you WANT to move the screen location? >I can understand banking in a different RAM band into the screen to >facilitate smoother animation, but what's the point in moving the actual >location? Same reason. Changing the screen address on many machines is faster than swapping in a different bank of RAM. And enables some nice scrolling tricks if you don't have hardware support (e.g. on the ST). -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:17 CDT 1997 Article: 67800 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!basilisk.pdc.nhs.gov.uk!yama.mcc.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 05:29:57 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a5e$f5953e00$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <3388C817.3D3A@EFD.LTH.Swe> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 15 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38175 comp.sys.cbm:67800 comp.emulators.cbm:20393 Daniel Dahlberg wrote in article <3388C817.3D3A@EFD.LTH.Swe>... > This is beginning to look like the old Amiga vs Atari debate that later > turned into the Amiga vs PC debate. (Of course, everybody knows that the > Amiga is one of the best machines ever made... :) ) > Yeah, long live the Amiga. however I'm *still* sticking with my Pentium until something along the lines of Phase 5's A/box comes along to tempt me back to workbench. :-) Andy From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:20 CDT 1997 Article: 67795 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 04:59:21 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 26 Message-ID: <01bc6a5a$af363ee0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <338852a1.4383537@news.demon.co.uk> <01bc6927$7d68ea40$04b8de8b@w9622136> <3388C6FB.7021@EFD.LTH.Swe> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38171 comp.sys.cbm:67795 comp.emulators.cbm:20388 Daniel Dahlberg wrote in article <3388C6FB.7021@EFD.LTH.Swe>... > > > Strike me dead if I'm wrong, but isn't "just" adding & > > > multiplying all a computer really does? > > > > > > > Strike me dead if I'm also wrong but isn't multiplying just repeated > > addition. > > > > Andy > > How about division? Tht's the operation that takes the longest to > perform (next to loading Turbo 250 on the good ol' 64 :) ) > > // Daniel Disvision is just a slightly fancier algorithm, using shifting and subtracting, instead of shifting and adding. And as anyone will tell you, in signed arithmetic, adding and subtracting are practically the same operation. The speed difference comes about because the method is a little more complex. Andy From natedac@dfw.dfw.net Wed Jun 4 17:06:23 CDT 1997 Article: 67729 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dfw.net!dfw.dfw.net!natedac From: Nate_DAC Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:10:43 -0500 Organization: DFW Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 110 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfw.dfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: The Starglider In-Reply-To: Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38087 comp.sys.cbm:67729 comp.emulators.cbm:20315 > A had nothing against the C64, mainly because I knew that it was no > threat to the spectrum. These are the reasons why: Ok I've watched this long enough, I've gotta add my two cents in here... > 1. The spectrum 48K had 48K of RAM, the C64 had 32K RAM. Wrong. The C64 has 64K. After the standard screen is subtracted from this, 63K. (1K screen, 1K of banked color ram). 64K-9K=55K if you have a full bitmapped screeen turned on. (8K bitmap, 1K memory mapped color, and the 1K of banked color ram) > 2. Spectrum Graphics, although lower in colour quality, had finer > pixels, making for better detail of pictures. Can't argue there, but this too depends on which video modes you are comparing. Thru some fancy software tricks, you can get a 64 to do 296x200 in 16 colors (still some color clash, but not usually a problem if you are careful about how you draw).. Such a mode is called IFLI, and while exteremely processor intensive, does prove that the 64's gfx can be pushed pretty high, and this IFLI trick is well beyond what the hardware could do without software. In other wirds, with just the right software tricks, the C64 can do just about anything graphics wise, inside that 320x200 area. Seems many PC's (even my cousin's PSX and Super Nintendo) still use low res 320x200 or similar, for many animated graphics routines. > 3. In the advent of the AY chip in 128K speccy's, which, incidentally, > was easier to program, better tunes came out. I take it the AY chip is the Spectrum's sound chip? Remember tho just because something is easr to program, doesn't make it better, however I know nothing of the AY chip, and not a lot about SID, so I'll just shut up here.. I will say that a SID chip can do multi-track digital music quite easily. Modplay 128 is an example of this. Not the world's best sound comes from my program, but it does work (I'm not the world's best coder) :) > 4. Faster processor in the spectrum. I am curious.. Have all of us fogotten about the various accellerators for the 64? Turbo-Master (4.09Mhz), Flash 8 (8Mhz) and Super CPU (20Mhz) all give the 64 an edge. Far as I know the Flash-8 and the SCPU are the only two that are now available (the SCPU is fairly new, just came out 6 months ago or so) > 5. Faster loading of games on spectrum. What'S the typical load time for say, a 40K file? On a 64 you can load this in 3 to 6 seconds depending on the DOS cartridge you use. Most of these upgrades require nothing but the ROM cartridge, and no extra cables. Some old systemslike Dolphin DOS, are even faster. I've read claims of copying an entire 1541 disk (about 170K) in about 8 seconds. > 6. Easier programming language on spectrum. Depends on your point of view. a seasoned 6510 programmer would prolly say the same thing about the 6510. I consider it's language easy to use. > 7. More games for spectrum. Can't argue here, as I simply don't know :) > 8. More spectrum units sold in UK. Again, I don't know here, but I think that the 64 sold some 11 million units during it's 10-year lifespan, in the states. Not sure about other countries. > 9. More peripherals for your needs on spectrum. Such as? > 10. More capable for pure mathematics so games like Mercenary (which I > know came out for the C64 first), ran smoother as the processor could > cope with the maths quicker. This is dependent on the person who programs the math routines, however in the end the Speccy should still outrun an unaccellerated 64, since the processor speed is the determining factor here, as opposed to fancy I/O hardware. > 11. Vector graphic games were also out for the C64, for similar reasons. I've seen quite a few fast vectors for the C64. It's a shame they are all in demos (Have you seen The Last Traktor 3 or Dawnfall?). _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/-'-'_/ _/ _/-' _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ natedac@dfw.net -- Specializing in Digital Sound on your Commodore Using BitchX for the IRC Rules!! -- Do *YOU* have the best!? From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:06:25 CDT 1997 Article: 67749 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:56:44 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 48 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38115 comp.sys.cbm:67749 comp.emulators.cbm:20341 On Mon, 26 May 1997 10:10:43 -0500, Nate_DAC wrote: >I take it the AY chip is the Spectrum's sound chip? Yes. And SID was *far* better, there's no doubt about that. Any Speccy owner arguing *that* one is simply insane. >Have all of us fogotten about the various accellerators for the 64? They aren't relevant. We should be comparing the straight 64 and Speccy (and variants) - not enhanced ones. I'm sure you can find a nice fast Z80 to put in a Speccy; come to think of it I'm pretty sure there's some Russian clone that does that. >What'S the typical load time for say, a 40K file? > >On a 64 you can load this in 3 to 6 seconds depending on the DOS cartridge >you use. But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of course, the Speccy was never limited to a specific tape deck - you could use whatever you wanted. *Without* hardware upgrades several highly accelerated tape loaders were developed for the Speccy. >> 6. Easier programming language on spectrum. > >Depends on your point of view. a seasoned 6510 programmer would prolly >say the same thing about the 6510. I consider it's language easy to use. I would guess he was talking about BASIC. Sinclair BASIC is probably responsible for a lot more programmers being in the business of programming than any other version besides perhaps BBC BASIC. The 64, and to some extent the Amiga, both handicapped their users slightly because of the unfriendly programming environment. I would guess that a higher proportion of Sinclair owners actually got their hands dirty with some coding compared to CBM owners, simply because it was more accessible. The manuals supplied with early Spectrums were incredibly good - full 'learning to program' stuff, not just basic reference stuff. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:27 CDT 1997 Article: 67817 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 07:30:30 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a6f$cdda9660$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 18 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38199 comp.sys.cbm:67817 comp.emulators.cbm:20406 Damien Burke wrote in article <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk>... > On Mon, 26 May 1997 10:10:43 -0500, Nate_DAC > wrote: > But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of > course, the Speccy was never limited to a specific tape deck - > you could use whatever you wanted. *Without* hardware upgrades > several highly accelerated tape loaders were developed for the > Speccy. These were usually just the standard loader with a shorter delay. This code was often stolen and used by CPC coders as an anti-pirate protection, go figure. :-) Andy From bartelar@telkom.co.za Wed Jun 4 17:06:30 CDT 1997 Article: 67827 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!196.25.1.18!news1.saix.net!usenet From: bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:28:05 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <338a9956.5944068@news> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: qtts-bartelar.telkom.co.za X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38210 comp.sys.cbm:67827 comp.emulators.cbm:20416 On Mon, 26 May 1997 19:56:44 GMT, damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) wrote: >On Mon, 26 May 1997 10:10:43 -0500, Nate_DAC > wrote: > >>Have all of us fogotten about the various accellerators for the 64? > >They aren't relevant. We should be comparing the straight 64 and >Speccy (and variants) - not enhanced ones. So the 'variants' aren't enhanced versions of the Speccy? Interesting concept ;-) .... >>What'S the typical load time for say, a 40K file? >> >>On a 64 you can load this in 3 to 6 seconds depending on the DOS cartridge >>you use. > >But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of >course, the Speccy was never limited to a specific tape deck - >you could use whatever you wanted. *Without* hardware upgrades >several highly accelerated tape loaders were developed for the >Speccy. Just to keep things fair here - many high speed _TAPE_ loading schemes were developed for the C64 and it's datacassette unit (no additional hardware required). In fact, all but the earliest tape software used these fastloader routines. (Guys, remember TurboTape, Pavloader etc etc?) I can't say how they compared to the Spectrum routines speed-wise, but memory says they were competitive (and lacked the fun of getting the volume set just right for the Spectrum to load the tapes ;-) Cheers Adrian --------------------------------------------- "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations." -- Tolkien From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:33 CDT 1997 Article: 68363 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 27 May 1997 13:32:46 GMT Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5menpu$eoq$4@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> <338a9956.5944068@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38920 comp.sys.cbm:68363 comp.emulators.cbm:20893 Adrian Bartel (bartelar@telkom.co.za) wrote: : On Mon, 26 May 1997 19:56:44 GMT, damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) : wrote: : >They aren't relevant. We should be comparing the straight 64 and : >Speccy (and variants) - not enhanced ones. : : So the 'variants' aren't enhanced versions of the Speccy? Interesting : concept ;-) 'Variants' include the 16K, the 48K and the spectrum +, in this case I think. (And the only difference between the speccy and speccy + was the improved keyboard...) : Just to keep things fair here - many high speed _TAPE_ loading schemes : were developed for the C64 and it's datacassette unit (no additional : hardware required). In fact, all but the earliest tape software used : these fastloader routines. (Guys, remember TurboTape, Pavloader etc : etc?) : : I can't say how they compared to the Spectrum routines speed-wise, but : memory says they were competitive (and lacked the fun of getting the : volume set just right for the Spectrum to load the tapes ;-) But was it REALLY worth the extra cost? After all, we could play music on our tape recorders as well.... -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" | |Andrew Halliwell | | |Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control | |Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:06:35 CDT 1997 Article: 68013 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:26:18 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <3390264a.8493586@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> <338a9956.5944068@news> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38438 comp.sys.cbm:68013 comp.emulators.cbm:20596 On Tue, 27 May 1997 08:28:05 GMT, bartelar@telkom.co.za (Adrian Bartel) wrote: >So the 'variants' aren't enhanced versions of the Speccy? Interesting >concept ;-) By that I mean a standard machine hacked about to give it a faster CPU is an unfair comparison, but a machine with a faster CPU that is mass-produced is fair game. >Just to keep things fair here - many high speed _TAPE_ loading schemes >were developed for the C64 and it's datacassette unit (no additional >hardware required). In fact, all but the earliest tape software used >these fastloader routines. (Guys, remember TurboTape, Pavloader etc >etc?) Good, I was worried there for a minute! >I can't say how they compared to the Spectrum routines speed-wise, but >memory says they were competitive (and lacked the fun of getting the >volume set just right for the Spectrum to load the tapes ;-) Actually the Speccy's tape loading was very reliable - much more so than the BBC, and more so than the 64 (in my admittedly more limited experience of that). Loading problems were often only found on, ahem, backup tapes... -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:38 CDT 1997 Article: 68022 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:39:13 GMT Message-ID: <338f44ff.2552813@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> <338a9956.5944068@news> <3390264a.8493586@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38455 comp.sys.cbm:68022 comp.emulators.cbm:20605 damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) wrote: >Actually the Speccy's tape loading was very reliable - much more >so than the BBC, and more so than the 64 (in my admittedly more >limited experience of that). Loading problems were often only >found on, ahem, backup tapes... Or some turboloaders... Rob. From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:40 CDT 1997 Article: 68024 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!baron.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 27 May 1997 21:30:09 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6ae5$186d42c0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> <338a9956.5944068@news> <3390264a.8493586@news.demon.co.uk> <338f44ff.2552813@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 17 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38461 comp.sys.cbm:68024 comp.emulators.cbm:20607 rjfm2 wrote in article <338f44ff.2552813@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK>... > damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) wrote: > > > >Actually the Speccy's tape loading was very reliable - much more > >so than the BBC, and more so than the 64 (in my admittedly more > >limited experience of that). Loading problems were often only > >found on, ahem, backup tapes... > > Or some turboloaders... Or on your original JSW tape that got played *far* too often. ;-) Andy From dat95pkn@idt.mdh.se Wed Jun 4 17:06:42 CDT 1997 Article: 67841 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.kth.se!du.se!columba.udac.uu.se!news.mdh.se!perkele.coyote.org!gud From: Peter Karlsson Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:37:58 +0200 Organization: 2:206/221.0 Lines: 20 Sender: peter@perkele.coyote.org Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: Peter Karlsson NNTP-Posting-Host: dat95pkn.campus.mdh.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> X-Warning: Junk / bulk email will be reported Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38228 comp.sys.cbm:67841 comp.emulators.cbm:20431 On Mon, 26 May 1997, Damien Burke wrote: > >What'S the typical load time for say, a 40K file? > >On a 64 you can load this in 3 to 6 seconds depending on the DOS cartridge > >you use. > But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of > course, the Speccy was never limited to a specific tape deck - > you could use whatever you wanted. *Without* hardware upgrades > several highly accelerated tape loaders were developed for the > Speccy. A standard C64 and a standard C64 tape deck saves and loads at 300 bps. With the various turbotape software that were available (they required no extra hardware) the speed would be boosted to about 10 times that figure. -- \\// Peter - http://nafmo.home.ml.org/ - ICQ UIN 762719 - Association Against Big .sigs From natedac@dfw.dfw.net Wed Jun 4 17:06:44 CDT 1997 Article: 68048 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsin.iconnet.net!news.dfw.net!dfw.dfw.net!natedac From: Nate_DAC Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:57:36 -0500 Organization: DFW Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: dfw.dfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: Damien Burke In-Reply-To: <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38527 comp.sys.cbm:68048 comp.emulators.cbm:20631 > They aren't relevant. We should be comparing the straight 64 and True. > But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of Not sure, I've never dealt much with tape decks, however I understand with nothing but a bit of softwre, a C64 tape deck can be accellerated to about the speed of a plain 1541. Not very impressive, but for some, still workable. > several highly accelerated tape loaders were developed for the > Speccy. Same goes for the 1541. With ordinary software, speed can be accellerated to about 25 times that of a stock system. No hardware add-ons, no tricks.. Unless you consider clever, optimized code a trick, in which case then, tape turbos and other accellerated software for either machine, falls under this category. _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/-'-'_/ _/ _/-' _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ natedac@dfw.net -- Specializing in Digital Sound on your Commodore Using BitchX for the IRC Rules!! -- Do *YOU* have the best!? From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:47 CDT 1997 Article: 68057 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!newsxfer.nether.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: 29 May 1997 07:34:45 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: <01bc6c02$b91c3820$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <3389c4e8.440135@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38547 comp.sys.cbm:68057 comp.emulators.cbm:20640 Nate_DAC wrote in article ... > > They aren't relevant. We should be comparing the straight 64 and > > True. > > > But what about using no tricks, just the standard tape deck? Of > > Not sure, I've never dealt much with tape decks, however I understand with > nothing but a bit of softwre, a C64 tape deck can be accellerated to about > the speed of a plain 1541. Not very impressive, but for some, still > workable. > Accellerated to the speed of a 1541?!?!?! Well I reckon if I *halved* the speed of my speccy tape deck, with a custom loader. I *might* just be able to match the speed :-) Andy From u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:49 CDT 1997 Article: 68366 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!server3.netnews.ja.net!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!daresbury!keele!not-for-mail From: u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Followup-To: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Date: 26 May 1997 20:50:48 GMT Distribution: world Message-ID: <5mct38$ql1$2@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bilbo.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950515BETA PL0] Lines: 106 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38926 comp.sys.cbm:68366 comp.emulators.cbm:20896 Nate_DAC (natedac@dfw.dfw.net) wrote: : > 4. Faster processor in the spectrum. : : I am curious.. : : Have all of us fogotten about the various accellerators for the 64? : : Turbo-Master (4.09Mhz), Flash 8 (8Mhz) and Super CPU (20Mhz) all give the : 64 an edge. Far as I know the Flash-8 and the SCPU are the only two that : are now available (the SCPU is fairly new, just came out 6 months ago or : so) When did these 'accelerators' show up? We are arguing about the speccy THEN, not extra-expanded beyond the scope of the no-longer supporded by sinclair speccy.... Are these late '80s or early '90s revelations? And much more importantly... How much did they cost in the UK? : > 5. Faster loading of games on spectrum. : : What'S the typical load time for say, a 40K file? We're comparing STANDARD speccy tape with STANDARD C64 here. Big deal if it could be MADE to work faster. Disk drives are SUPPOSED to. It's just that for some reason best known by commodore, theirs DIDN'T... : On a 64 you can load this in 3 to 6 seconds depending on the DOS cartridge : you use. Most of these upgrades require nothing but the ROM cartridge, : and no extra cables. Witb a speccy interface 1 and Microdrives, it might take 10 - 20 seconds. (But then, microdrives were infinite loop tape drives. Not random access.) Anyone with Opus or Disciple experience who can say how fast REAL disk drives were? : Some old systemslike Dolphin DOS, are even faster. I've read claims of : copying an entire 1541 disk (about 170K) in about 8 seconds. Not all that fast. It'd take my QL about that amount of time for a similar file. Pretty standard disk access time if you ask me.... (For the 1980's) : > 6. Easier programming language on spectrum. : : Depends on your point of view. a seasoned 6510 programmer would prolly : say the same thing about the 6510. I consider it's language easy to use. The Z80 has a much more.... fertile instruction set. It has a lot of nifty features. AND, much more importantly, it's I/O bus doesn't take up valuable address space. Instead, it has special in/out commands to handle I/O.... : > 7. More games for spectrum. : : Can't argue here, as I simply don't know :) : : > 8. More spectrum units sold in UK. : : Again, I don't know here, but I think that the 64 sold some 11 million : units during it's 10-year lifespan, in the states. Not sure about other : countries. The Speccy must have sold over 1 million in the UK. (And when you think about the difference in populations between the UK and US.....) : > 9. More peripherals for your needs on spectrum. : : Such as? Oh, the usual.... Digitisers/joysticks/Multiface (hot button/NMI device used commonly for breaking into games, but also has more serious uses) /disk drives/parallel printer interfaces/speach synths/MIDI/proper sound boards (before the 128). I even heard rumours of an enhanced graphics/colour card, but I don't know if anything came of it..... : > 10. More capable for pure mathematics so games like Mercenary (which I : > know came out for the C64 first), ran smoother as the processor could : > cope with the maths quicker. : : This is dependent on the person who programs the math routines, however in : the end the Speccy should still outrun an unaccellerated 64, since the : processor speed is the determining factor here, as opposed to fancy I/O : hardware. Yep. : > 11. Vector graphic games were also out for the C64, for similar reasons. : : I've seen quite a few fast vectors for the C64. It's a shame they are all : in demos (Have you seen The Last Traktor 3 or Dawnfall?). Never heard of 'em..... -- ______________________________________________________________________________ |u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" | |Andrew Halliwell | | |Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control | |Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ |GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ | |5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From damien@jetman.d.c.u Wed Jun 4 17:06:52 CDT 1997 Article: 68388 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!jetman.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: damien@jetman.d.c.u (Damien Burke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:10:55 GMT Organization: Ha! None! Message-ID: <33950529.929792@news.demon.co.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <5mct38$ql1$2@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> Reply-To: damien@jetman.d.c.u NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: jetman.demon.co.uk [194.222.120.157] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38950 comp.sys.cbm:68388 comp.emulators.cbm:20910 On 26 May 1997 20:50:48 GMT, u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) wrote: >Anyone with Opus or Disciple experience who can say how fast REAL disk >drives were? A mate of mine had a Disciple - it was about the same speed as disks on the BBC range; i.e. nice and fast, a few seconds max for loading a snapshot. -- //// Damien Burke (replace d.c.u in address with demon.co.uk if replying) //// Spectrum pages: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/ //// New to this group? Read this: http://www.jetman.demon.co.uk/speccy/faq/ From kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:54 CDT 1997 Article: 68399 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rjfm2.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk (rjfm2) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 19:49:29 GMT Message-ID: <33982362.8284098@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk><33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com><3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <5mct38$ql1$2@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> Reply-To: kendy@rjfm2.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rjfm2.demon.co.uk [194.222.110.197] X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38961 comp.sys.cbm:68399 comp.emulators.cbm:20920 u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) wrote: > >The Speccy must have sold over 1 million in the UK. >(And when you think about the difference in populations between the UK and >US.....) I remember seeing a pic of Clive Sinclair getting a custom made `white' spectrum for 2 million sales...and that was pretty early in the spectrums life. Rob. From starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:56 CDT 1997 Article: 68419 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!EU.net!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!het.net!newsgate.unisource.nl!fido.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!thespian.demon.co.uk!thespian.demon.co.uk!starglider From: The Starglider Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:45:03 +0100 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <5mct38$ql1$2@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33982362.8284098@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: thespian.demon.co.uk [194.222.59.42] MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.03a Lines: 25 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38989 comp.sys.cbm:68419 comp.emulators.cbm:20935 In article <33982362.8284098@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK>, rjfm2 writes >u5a77@teach.cs.keele.ac.uk (Spike) wrote: > > >> >>The Speccy must have sold over 1 million in the UK. >>(And when you think about the difference in populations between the UK and >>US.....) > >I remember seeing a pic of Clive Sinclair getting a custom made >`white' spectrum for 2 million sales...and that was pretty early in >the spectrums life. > > >Rob. 2 million? I'm sure the spectrum sold well over 5 million in the UK? -- **************The Starglider**************** * E-Mail:starglider@thespian.demon.co.uk * * Web site:http://www.thespian.demon.co.uk * _WW_ * NVG UPDATES:nvg@thespian.demon.co.uk * /_ _\ ******************************************** | O O | ___________________________________________________________oOO_\/_OOo___________ From dglen@sunion.warwick.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:06:59 CDT 1997 Article: 68453 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.ece.nwu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!server1.netnews.ja.net!warwick!not-for-mail From: Derek Glen Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 07:45:24 -0700 Organization: University of Warwick Students' Union Lines: 18 Message-ID: <33942E04.5CF@sunion.warwick.ac.uk> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <5li6cc$mbv$8@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33823F4D.5737@isis.sund.ac.uk> <33845f94.1768387@commodore64.com> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <5mct38$ql1$2@gerry.cc.keele.ac.uk> <33982362.8284098@NEWS.DEMON.CO.UK> NNTP-Posting-Host: happy.csv.warwick.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:39005 comp.sys.cbm:68453 comp.emulators.cbm:20952 The Starglider wrote: > > > >I remember seeing a pic of Clive Sinclair getting a custom made > >`white' spectrum for 2 million sales...and that was pretty early in > >the spectrums life. > > > > > >Rob. > 2 million? I'm sure the spectrum sold well over 5 million in the UK? 5 million? That's *nothing* - surely it sold at *least* 50 million?!? ;-) (Sorry - it is 7,45 am!) Degsy, From A.P.Cadley@uea.ac.uk Wed Jun 4 17:07:02 CDT 1997 Article: 67799 of comp.sys.cbm Path: news.acns.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!disgorge.news.demon.net!demon!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!basilisk.pdc.nhs.gov.uk!yama.mcc.ac.uk!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!cpca3.uea.ac.uk!news From: "Andrew Cadley" Newsgroups: comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.cbm,comp.emulators.cbm Subject: Re: Spectrum Emulator for C64 [additonal translation] Date: 27 May 1997 05:20:11 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Message-ID: <01bc6a5d$9855e4c0$04b8de8b@w9622136> References: <337C5E94.388@actcom.co.il> <3389cd28.1468228@commodore64.com> <5majpp$amg@eyrie.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak1d.vlg1.uea.ac.uk X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Lines: 108 Xref: news.acns.nwu.edu comp.sys.sinclair:38174 comp.sys.cbm:67799 comp.emulators.cbm:20392 XmikeX wrote in article <5majpp$amg@eyrie.org>... > > > The Starglider said : > > >A had nothing against the C64, mainly because I knew that it was no > >threat to the spectrum. These are the reasons why: > > Translation : "My mother and father bought a Spectrum, and well...I spent > the next decade justifying their purchase." Which never required as much effort as the poor goits who had to justify their parents pathetic selection of the C64. > >1. The spectrum 48K had 48K of RAM, the C64 had 32K RAM. > > Translation : "I know the C64 had 64K RAM but my counselor advised me that > denial is the most efficient way to combat penis-envy." The C64 *had* 64K but a large chunk of this was unusable reducing it to ~40K. > >2. Spectrum Graphics, although lower in colour quality, had finer > >pixels, making for better detail of pictures. > > Translation : "I should have invented some pseudo-history where Spectrum > Graphics became Silicon Graphics, but I just wasn't THAT creative." Translation : I can't say anything better about C64 graphics, without lying. > >3. In the advent of the AY chip in 128K speccy's, which, incidentally, > >was easier to program, better tunes came out. > > Translation : "I obviously feel that the base 48K spectrum was righteously > and thoroughly outclassed by the C64." Translation : I shall deny all knowledge of the C128 because it was a steaming pile of crap which spent most of it's time in C64 mode. > >4. Faster processor in the spectrum. > > Interesting statement. Traslation : Um, another point to the speccy I guess. > >5. Faster loading of games on spectrum. > > Hey, cool...! Translation : My argument is rapidly fading. > >6. Easier programming language on spectrum. > > ...a Windows95 user!? Translation : Ny insulting another OS people might forget what I've been saying about the C64/speccy debate. > >7. More games for spectrum. > > HAHAHAHEHeheheoheeehahahahahooohahohhhahahaoohohooohahahahhohohhhhahahahhhah a Translation : When losing an argument badly, use burst of sporadic laughter to try and throw your opponent. > >8. More spectrum units sold in UK. > > Yeah? Wow..."another cros